Please Help me to understand FLA battery.

[paulcheung]

What is the point Paul? Are buying? As for pricing that works out to about $250/Kwh which is on the upper end. However if they can last 10 years is one heck of a deal which would put Kwh cost in the neighborhood of 7-cents per Kwh. Are you sure those prices are correct? In the USA the Trojan IND17-6V sells for $1295. Having trouble believing only a $53 difference.

Well when I am going to replace my 2 set of the Rolls, I am interest to get the IND13-6V. they will suit me well just one set. As for the price, I am sure of the IND13-6V and the IND17-6V I think I heard that price or could be $165,000 which is $1,482 US Dollars. Because my mind is all about the IND13-6V so I didn't pay too much attention to the IND17-6V price.

I am not too surprise about the difference on price, Jamaica don't have custom duty for solar systems. The Rolls S530 is selling for $42,000 which is $377.35 US.
Thanks.

[Soulearner]

Paul I have gone over this with you a couple of times and probable 100 times here on the forum.

I hope the good folks here do a lot of copy/paste, because the repetition helps it sink in to my thick skull as I read threads and learn.

[Sunking]

Yep - only used for baseline measurements. That Centech is no Midtronics, but it was accurate enough to read somewhat near published IR specs when comparing my pure-lead agm to a conventional agm (Like Odyssey to Deka). Ups-style agm's fared much worse, although they did read close to their published specs. Something like going from 1.1 pure lead, to 3 or so for conventional agm, to 8 or more for the ups-style agms.

I haven't placed it on an FLA battery yet.

I take care of my batteries, but wanted to prove to myself that marketing material would actually measure up. They did.

Don't put a lot of confidence on Battery Conductance Meters as meaning much, even on a new battery. Only pay attention to Baseline and what happens afterwards. Battery Conductance meters use AC signal to measure conductance and really does not tell you squat about the true DC IR.

For true IR load the battery down with say a 1C load. Does not have to be a full 1C or precise, but as large of a current load as you can muster to get accuracy. What is important is current measurement accuracy

Calculate IR = [Open Circuit Voltage - Loaded Circuit Voltage] / Load Current.

Voltage is measured on the battery term post.

[PNjunction]

Yep - only used for baseline measurements. That Centech is no Midtronics, but it was accurate enough to read somewhat near published IR specs when comparing my pure-lead agm to a conventional agm (Like Odyssey to Deka). Ups-style agm's fared much worse, although they did read close to their published specs. Something like going from 1.1 pure lead, to 3 or so for conventional agm, to 8 or more for the ups-style agms.

I haven't placed it on an FLA battery yet.

I take care of my batteries, but wanted to prove to myself that marketing material would actually measure up. They did.

[Sunking]

The dealer in Jamaica confirm the Trojan IND17-6V is 6volt 897 amps hour for 150,000 Ja. dollars which is $1,348 US dollar each, The Trojan IND13-6V 6volt 673 amps is for 135,000 Ja. Dollars which is 1,213 US dollars. Delivered in Jamaica.

What is the point Paul? Are buying? As for pricing that works out to about $250/Kwh which is on the upper end. However if they can last 10 years is one heck of a deal which would put Kwh cost in the neighborhood of 7-cents per Kwh. Are you sure those prices are correct? In the USA the Trojan IND17-6V sells for $1295. Having trouble believing only a $53 difference.

[Sunking]

I almost feel ashamed to admit it, and certainly a one-off anecdotal tale on the net like this deserves skepticism. Measure the impedance grasshopper..

Battery Conductance Meter is the only tool you can use on an AGM battery. With that said they can also be useless. Only way to make them useful is to measure the internal resistance when the batteries are new and have been cycled a few times to establish a Baseline. It is from the Baseline measurement which battery health can be compared too. Death is near when you see a 10% increase from baseline.

[paulcheung]

Price on Trojan battery is confirmed

The dealer in Jamaica confirm the Trojan IND17-6V is 6volt 897 amps hour for 150,000 Ja. dollars which is $1,348 US dollar each, The Trojan IND13-6V 6volt 673 amps is for 135,000 Ja. Dollars which is 1,213 US dollars. Delivered in Jamaica.

[PNjunction]

There is a really simple tool that tells you instantly whether or not your battery desulfator is set correctly. That tool is called a "hydrometer". So I'm going to add that there also still no substitute for a battery desulfator calibration device - more commonly called a "hydrometer" by most folks.

I'm with you on nearly all of that. In my case with AGM's, we obviously can't use a hydrometer, nor rely on soc voltage. Yes, this is an FLA thread, but this *might* deserve consideration.

To my shock and disbelief, I found that Battery-Minder's way of doing it actually produced results. I measured the impedance on an old Optima agm, that while it would accept a charge from my normal chargers and solar setup, the impedance after each round of charging never really changed. When I used a Battery-Minder, and measured the impedance, there was an improvement, and successive rounds of cycling with it improved it further.

The Centech Digital Battery Analyzer (yellow case) did the trick, even though it is not lab-grade, it will measure impedance. I use it for baseline measurements, and not exacting specs. CCA I could care less about. I can't afford the big-time analyzers, but it was good enough to see if the claims of the Battery Minder were true.

What I liked (aside from their obsession over exacting voltages, temperature-compensation, safety timeouts, good build quality, detailed specs on the algorithm, etc), was their honesty in NOT claiming it will bring back the dead and warning people not to waste time on those.

I almost feel ashamed to admit it, and certainly a one-off anecdotal tale on the net like this deserves skepticism. Measure the impedance grasshopper..

[ChrisOlson]

Chris while I agree Smart Carbon is a Marketing name, but it means something worth looking into. Don't dismiss it as just Marketing. PbC is a real technology that looks promising. I do know a couple of utility companies are using DEKA version in a test to store energy at night with excess capacity, and releasing it in the day during peak. From what I have read looks promising and could very well be a game changer.

Could be, but you know as well as I do that Trojan is the 800lb gorilla of marketing hype in years past on everything from their separators to their paste. Marketing it as "revolutionary" when indeed what they are marketing has been used in industrial forklift batteries for over 30 years in some cases.

So I remain somewhat skeptical of anything Trojan claims, and especially when they fire up the marketing machine and run it at full boost on something like Smart Carbon. I mean, they do this testing like for IEC 61427 under controlled conditions on 150 cycles. When in reality it would take over 10 years in the real world to know if what they are hyping today is even true.

In the world of lead-acid batteries there has been everything from additives that you put in the electrolyte to little electronic boxes that send pulses thru the battery to remove sulfation. And anybody that knows anything about batteries knows that sulfation is a NATURAL part of the discharge of the cell. And anybody that knows anything about chemistry knows that the lead sulfate that collects on both negative and positive (NOT just the negative) plates does not turn to hard crystalline form overnight, in one week or even two weeks unless the battery is very hot.

So call me Old School. But where I come from there is still no substitute for a real battery desulfator - more commonly called a "battery charger" by most folks.

Edit:
Also, lead sulfate that is not put back into solution by your battery desulfator and remains on the plates is also not a mystery. There is a really simple tool that tells you instantly whether or not your battery desulfator is set correctly. That tool is called a "hydrometer". So I'm going to add that there also still no substitute for a battery desulfator calibration device - more commonly called a "hydrometer" by most folks.

[Sunking]

From what I have read so far, there are two principal effects:
1. The carbon provides surface area for conduction which is not covered by the insulating lead sulfate.
2. The carbon provides nucleation points for formation of smaller lead sulfate "clumps", thereby reducing the development of sulfate crystals which are large compared to their surface area and so hard to force back into solution.

The normal chemical action of the cell must deposit lead sulfate on the negative plate in direct proportion to the number of AH delivered (Peukert aside) and so the goal is to keep it reactive even when sitting at PSOC rather than to reduce its buildup by keeping the SOC high.

Translated means much slower deposit of Lead Sulfate crystals on the negative plates allowing PSOC.

Don't get me wrong I am not 100% sold as of yet. That will take time. But I would have no problem say using a pair of T-105RE as a test platform to operate for ten years. Heck that is less than $400 for something could use down here now in Panama as soon as I get the ham shack up and on the air. Could not bring the Concorde batteries down for some stupid reason.

Chris while I agree Smart Carbon is a Marketing name, but it means something worth looking into. Don't dismiss it as just Marketing. PbC is a real technology that looks promising. I do know a couple of utility companies are using DEKA version in a test to store energy at night with excess capacity, and releasing it in the day during peak. From what I have read looks promising and could very well be a game changer.

[inetdog]

... By adding Carbon to the negative plate prevents or drastically slows down lead sulfate from collecting and hardening on the negative plates. That is a huge gain.

From what I have read so far, there are two principal effects:
1. The carbon provides surface area for conduction which is not covered by the insulating lead sulfate.
2. The carbon provides nucleation points for formation of smaller lead sulfate "clumps", thereby reducing the development of sulfate crystals which are large compared to their surface area and so hard to force back into solution.

The normal chemical action of the cell must deposit lead sulfate on the negative plate in direct proportion to the number of AH delivered (Peukert aside) and so the goal is to keep it reactive even when sitting at PSOC rather than to reduce its buildup by keeping the SOC high.

[Sunking]

Chris you were beating your chest about Aquion carbon technology right? Is it just because it is Trojan you do not like? 90% of all lead acid battery failures are due to sulfation on the negative plate, and remaining is corrosion on the positive plate. By adding Carbon to the negative plate prevents or drastically slows down lead sulfate from collecting and hardening on the negative plates. That is a huge gain. The only downside is it reduces specific energy density, but that is no consequence for stationary RE application, not good for EV, but no problem for RE as all it means is more weight and volume required. That is a very good trade getting possible 10,000 to 30,000 cycles for a little extra weight and space.

Only negative thing I can say is prove it. Not to just Trojan, but all that manufacture PbC batteries. I will give them a benefit of a doubt because third party testing strongly indicates their is something to the claims. The true test come from the feild users like yourself. It will be a game changer if they can make a battery that can last 10+ years without loss of capacity and operate PSOC.

[paulcheung]

They're not going to tell you that either. I smell marketing hype here - very strong stench.

Well Chris, Marketing hype or not, if what Dereck said in the previous post is correct, that the IND line can accept charge up to 2C rating and discharge up to 1C rating then that alone will win over the older design. We can pump as much current into it like AGM batteries and pay the same price as the FLA batteries. That is a win to me. Let hope the technology get better in time so the solar industry will get more popular so price of the battery will come down.

[PNjunction]

Instead of marketing, how about Exides patent. 2012 and 2014 especially relevant.

http://www.faqs.org/patents/assignee/exide-technologies/

and some other light reading:

https://www.google.com/patents/US20120171564

It all boils down to better Psoc and better charge acceptance. Toss in less sulfation.

All these manufacturers should just duke it out in the UBC Octagon. I'm especially looking forward to the middleweight Axion vs Aquion bout.

For me, Exide wins because I can get my hands on one in 10 minutes. Pbc for the common man!

[ChrisOlson]

What I do not see a good description of is how the use of "various carbon additives" "in the battery" compares to using carbon negative plates.
Maybe same thing, maybe not.

They're not going to tell you that either. I smell marketing hype here - very strong stench.