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  • #76
    Originally posted by DanKegel View Post

    West-facing (or tracking) systems would help reduce total energy storage needed a bit, but they make the system ramp-up at sunset even steeper.

    Anyway, stranger things have happened. Some places require solar on new homes; if home batteries go mass market, some places might start mandating them, too.
    Dan: Reality is, the goal for most homeowners is a lower electric bill. Until residential level energy storage becomes much more cost effective ( == lower price) and is provided by outfits besides those run by a con man, it ain't there yet.

    As for west facing systems, since they will provide more energy later in the day (but still less energy overall than will a more southerly orientation), the ramp up in demand on the grid at sunset may be steeper, but that will be due to the shorter time of ramp up, or sharper drop off of west facing panel output as f(time), not the increase in demand on the system. Let the POCO and free market/demand figure that one out. You can't do it.

    A generally available, safe, viable, cost effective and small scale (e.g. residential level) storage scheme - when and if it becomes viable - and it ain't here yet - will actually deflate the argument for more westerly facing arrays being more cost effective under T.O.U. billing tariffs. (which, at least for most of CA, they are not anyway, at least not beyond about a 200 - 210 deg. azimuth +/- some).

    In the limit, and theoretically, the larger a residential storage unit is, the more it will tend to take on some of the characteristics of a net metering tariff, that is and primarily, it will tend to approach an infinite storage size.

    On a grid scale, depending on individual loads, any residential storage can smooth out the day to night transition from local (residential) generation to meeting demand with POCO supplied grid power. It will be one way/tool/method to move to the future. The challenge will be, as always, to watch out for the con men and their ignorant minions who, in their wishful, shortsighted, myopic and mostly self-centered non thinking, unknowingly support the con artists. Caveat Emptor.

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    • #77
      Originally posted by DanKegel View Post

      West-facing (or tracking) systems would help reduce total energy storage needed a bit, but they make the system ramp-up at sunset even steeper.

      Anyway, stranger things have happened. Some places require solar on new homes; if home batteries go mass market, some places might start mandating them, too.
      Dan when are you going to learn no one here likes you and you are not welcomed here. You will be attacked every time you show up here. Go ahead and complain, it will not be heard because even the Moderators attack you.
      MSEE, PE

      Comment


      • #78
        Originally posted by DanKegel View Post
        Anyway, stranger things have happened. Some places require solar on new homes; if home batteries go mass market, some places might start mandating them, too.
        And we will have a repeat of the 1970's solar-thermal debacle.

        Much better to just do real time pricing for power and let people decide if they want batteries.

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        • #79
          Sigh....My POCO just began offering up to $1800 in incentives to install a battery storage system.

          https://www.srpnet.com/electric/home...e/default.aspx
          Dave W. Gilbert AZ
          6.63kW grid-tie owner

          Comment


          • #80
            Originally posted by azdave View Post
            Sigh....My POCO just began offering up to $1800 in incentives to install a battery storage system.

            https://www.srpnet.com/electric/home...e/default.aspx
            Plan on the prices for such storage systems going up something like the about same amount as the POCO incentive.

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            • #81
              Tesla already raised their Powerwall 2 price $400 two weeks ago-

              https://electrek.co/2018/04/21/tesla...ice-powerwall/

              So what is your opinion on the incentives azDave ? I wonder if APS will follow suit.
              Last edited by Kingram; 05-04-2018, 03:54 PM.
              9.36 grid tied, Phoenix Arizona

              Comment


              • #82
                Originally posted by DanKegel View Post

                Along those lines, it's interesting that electric meter maker Itron and storage vendor Sonnen announced a partnership recently. Some towns already require solar on new houses; requiring 4kwh of storage as well, and using it to reduce peak system load to avoid adding peakers, may well be in the cards someday.
                You are right Dan , this popped up on my news feed today -

                https://www.ocregister.com/2018/05/0...-on-new-homes/

                Solar would be included with new homes just like a water heater and central air conditioning .
                Last edited by Kingram; 05-04-2018, 08:07 PM.
                9.36 grid tied, Phoenix Arizona

                Comment


                • #83
                  Originally posted by Kingram View Post
                  You are right Dan , this popped up on my news feed today -

                  Solar would be included with new homes just like a water heater and central air conditioning .
                  So NET ZERO is going obsolete? I don't see what replaces it, people are still going to have lights
                  on at night and the AC. And no 3KWH battery is going to solve that problem, nor will battery
                  problems be accepted by the public.

                  Here in northern IL have been net zero for years, but it would not work if every customer did it.
                  Collect energy in the summer, use it up in winter. Its a huge problem for the PoCo, but I hope they
                  are working hard on it. Bruce Roe

                  Comment


                  • #84
                    Originally posted by bcroe View Post

                    So NET ZERO is going obsolete? I don't see what replaces it, people are still going to have lights
                    on at night and the AC. And no 3KWH battery is going to solve that problem, nor will battery
                    problems be accepted by the public.

                    Here in northern IL have been net zero for years, but it would not work if every customer did it.
                    Collect energy in the summer, use it up in winter. Its a huge problem for the PoCo, but I hope they
                    are working hard on it. Bruce Roe
                    Bruce shut up. Dan and solar supporters do not want the public to know what reality is. It is not Politically Correct to speak truth and facts. You should know better, The public has been brainwashed and educating people would destroy all that hard work. Think of how long and how much work it took to make Dan an idiot?
                    MSEE, PE

                    Comment


                    • #85
                      Originally posted by Sunking View Post

                      Bruce shut up. Dan and solar supporters do not want the public to know what reality is. It is not Politically Correct to speak truth and facts. You should know better, The public has been brainwashed and educating people would destroy all that hard work. Think of how long and how much work it took to make Dan an idiot?
                      Sunking How about we educate people the best we can and not call them names ( idiot ) and try to get them banned ( aren't you banned yet ) when they don't agree with us or don't tow the line we demand ? or is that to hard for you to use some self control ? People are going to disagree from time to time .

                      https://alcse.org/what-is-net-zero-energy/

                      I mean I wouldn't want Dan to start calling you SunQueen everytime he didn't like something you said, lol

                      9.36 grid tied, Phoenix Arizona

                      Comment


                      • #86
                        Originally posted by Kingram View Post
                        I mean I wouldn't want Dan to start calling you SunQueen everytime he didn't like something you said, lol
                        Would not bother me 1 little bit, I do not let words bother me. You have to weak to allow that to happen and lived a sheltered life. You have not been around long enough or you would know Dan is here only to make trouble and get the crap kicked out of him. Mods would ban him if they could and he has been banned a few times temporarily to make him leave. Do some homework, Dan gets the crap kicked out of him all the time even by the moderators and admin. Facts and logic do not apply to him, RE is a religion to him no matter what the cost. Go do a search he goes to a lot of forums pitching his agenda. What he really advocates is raising gasoline tax so high, no one can afford gasoline except the rich. Dan is quite wealthy and can afford what working people cannot.

                        I tried it your way, does not work. Many people have tried. He comes back once in a while, throw his propaganda out to see if we are still looking out for him. He likes being kicked.
                        MSEE, PE

                        Comment


                        • #87
                          Originally posted by Kingram View Post
                          Sunking How about we educate people the best we can and not call them names ( idiot ) and try to get them banned ( aren't you banned yet ) when they don't agree with us or don't tow the line we demand ? or is that to hard for you to use some self control ? People are going to disagree from time to time .

                          https://alcse.org/what-is-net-zero-energy/

                          I mean I wouldn't want Dan to start calling you SunQueen everytime he didn't like something you said, lol
                          Most of what Dan brings to this venue is repeats and rehashes of stuff from mostly one side of the issue that abound the airwaves, press, social media and the net.. He's been prevented from attaching such stuff to his posts mostly for that reason, and also because a lot of his reposted fluff doesn't stand the light of day, or is mostly irrelevant to anything practical or useful - kind of like junk science. That's not much more than a waste of time for knowledgeable folks who know better, and makes a lot of us pity Dan for what some of us see as childlike behavior and motivation(s). But for the solar ignorant who show up here looking for some real information, it can cause some real problems when they read Dan's rehashed tripe and attach some veracity to it by virtue of its official looking origins, ascribe some veracity to it and wind up going down a wrong road waste of time and resources when they're led to believe R.E. potential for good is greater than a more sober outlook would allow.

                          More not that anyone cares: IMO only, that's rude, inconsiderate, selfish and unacceptable behavior. I go after Dan's antics for those reasons. Like a child who gets scolded for inappropriate behavior, Dan thinks I don't like him for calling out what I see as his often inappropriate and likely harmful behavior. Reality is, and facts are, seems like I've always known someone before I would like/dislike them. Dan and I have never met. But, I think I know B.S. when I smell it and Dan's posts often have a familiar scent to them. I sort of think it's kind of a public service to call B.S. on Dan's spoor when I think I see it. Other's do the same for their own motivations. In that respect, I believe I'm in good company.

                          As for Dan's motivation, not that anyone cares, but my guess is that Dan is a "me-too" wanna be of R.E. of the "you could just and simply do this and the world would be better" school that doesn't take time to understand the details (where the devil seems to often reside) but wants to play with the big dogs.

                          But, since this is a place to exchange information and opinion, Dan seems to think and act as if he's free to abuse the privilege. Other's are just as free to call B.S. on his stuff as they see the need, public service or otherwise.

                          Comment


                          • #88
                            Ok , I did do some research on him before I posted and saw him post and then get ripped and he stayed civil and did not give it back to you guys so I felt sorry for the guy but I will do some more digging and just see want he said that was so wrong.
                            9.36 grid tied, Phoenix Arizona

                            Comment


                            • #89
                              Originally posted by Kingram View Post
                              I will do some more digging and just see want he said that was so wrong.
                              I think part of it is I disagreed with SK and JPM. That alone drove them nuts

                              But the bigger picture is - they're part of the folks that are convinced that humans aren't causing climate change, and posting any science on the topic - or any news related to reducing greenhouse gas emissions - triggers them pretty hard. The forum's current owner appears to agree with them, too.
                              The other side of the equation is that SK and JPM are genuinely helpful people, with strong technical skills, and that's very valuable to the forum.
                              The upshot is, they get a pass for behavior that would get them kicked off quickly on less polarized forums.

                              Anyway, they've been gunning for me for some time, and seem to attack anything I say, no matter how neutral, factual, or careful it is. C'est la vie.

                              Comment


                              • #90
                                Originally posted by bcroe View Post
                                So NET ZERO is going obsolete?
                                My impression is that California's realizing that, if your goal is to reduce carbon emissions, adding solar by itself becomes less and less useful as the grid becomes saturated with it; to be useful, it needs to be coupled with other measures like load shifting, peak shaving, and time-of-use pricing.

                                The rules approved today by the energy commission ( utilitydive.com/news/california-to-require-rooftop-solar-for-most-new-homes/523200/ ) would require solar on many new buildings, but also encourage storage, particularly storage that is responsive to TOU pricing and other utility signals. For details, see energy.ca.gov/title24/2019standards/rulemaking/documents, click on "2019 Reference Appendices"; appendix 11 is about PV requirements, appendix 12 is about storage. It's interesting stuff; it seems clear they're learning from Hawaii's experience. (See also utilitydive.com/news/solar-has-transformed-into-solar-plus-storage-what-will-net-metering-becom/522893/ for some more thoughts on the subject.)

                                The rules still need to be approved by the building standards commission, so it's not a done deal yet.

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