The Max Smoke charging model
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--Mod Note: This is not a good place to discuss what the Moderators will or will not do.
And you are, of course, subject to the same warning on name calling that Dereck got!
Both of you lay off please and get back to business.Last edited by inetdog; 09-28-2015, 02:07 PM.Comment
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Most of those peel and stick solar panels died early deaths due to not being able to stay cool. Being stuck to the surface of a metal roof just got them too hot. Most of the manufacturers have close up shop by now. I believe the cold temperatures helped prolong the ones you used.
That sounds like a neat trick with the baby oil. I guess the oil being "baby safe" doesn't have any impurities for the battery acid to work on.
How often did you perform an EQ charge on the batteries?
If getting photos is a problem don't worry about it. I was just curious about your installation and the longevity of the panels
Wait;
Here's a photo from October of 2003, just prior to the solar panels being installed.
I'll find some of the equipment soon.
How I get to work;
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1st thing is really bad is if you go to DIY forums especially RV forums you see this tip a lot. There is eveen a company that sells a battery oil, a modern day Snake Oil company that repackages tinted mineral oil at 1000% mark up called Thermoil. Right in the instructions it tells you to use your hydrometer to remove 1/4 inch of electrolyte and dispose of it. Then refill with oil. If that sounds good to you, then you are very ignorant. You just removed battery acid which cannot be replaced. You just insured yourself of no possible way to ever reach full charge specific gravity ever again with diluted electrolyte. You threw it away and got what you asked for.
2nd if that oil ever comes in contact with the plates or grids, the oil will seep into the pours of the lead and coat all surfaces it comes into contact with. As a result shuts down chemical reactions in the contaminated area and loss of capacity.
The oil trick roots date back to Edisons NiFe battery, and still used today by some NiFe owners. That is fine for NiFe as the electrolyte is alkaline and not acid. Alkaline electrolyte is a magnet for contaminants and literally sucks it out of the air. Thus is why NiFe electrolyte must be tested and replaced regularly. Oil slows that down in Nife. Lead is not Iron and lead batteries electrolyte is not alkaline.
It regurgitated again back in the mid 90's from a RV/Marine battery manufacture. Cannot remember the name at the moment, but they used the oil method claiming exaggerated battery life. Worked so well they went bankrupt from warranty claims and poor sales and reputation. If you allow your electrolyte level to get low enough, oil will come in contact with the plates and game over. Charge your battery fast enough to agitate electrolyte, and oil will come into contact with the plates. Put them in a mobile application and you are guaranteed to have oil contamination after first drive.
But here is a tip from a battery pro. Want to keep battery acid off your skin when handling batteries? Coat your hands and arms lightly with mineral oil or Vaseline. Battery Acid and water will roll right off your skin like water off a Duck's back. Same thing your mom put on your butt to keep it clean and dry to prevent chaffing and rashes.MSEE, PEComment
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Looks just like some sites I designed and built in CA, AZ, NM, TX, and CO for ATT and Verizon mountain top cell sites with Solar. About 122 of them spread around I-10, I-20, I-40, I-17, I-15 etc....MSEE, PEComment
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Even though most of these sites are on mountain tops with clear views of the sky, they do tend to stay cool during the day with little heating. I've never had an issue working inside one during the summer anyway; getting hot in a cinderblock building. Most are about 12' x 20' with open ceiling to the rafters. There is a lot of roof joists and the sheathing is very heavy to handle the snow loads. The roof is a 45 degree pitch, not great for solar, but great for keeping snow off as it slides right down. That is, until enough has slid down that it reaches the eves. Then it just keeps piling up! Ha!
Wait;
Here's a photo from October of 2003, just prior to the solar panels being installed.
...removed pictures to keep the post short...
I'll find some of the equipment soon.
How I get to work;Comment
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You brought up a couple points I don't understand;
You just insured yourself of no possible way to ever reach full charge specific gravity ever again with diluted electrolyte.
2nd if that oil ever comes in contact with the plates or grids, the oil will seep into the pours of the lead and coat all surfaces it comes into contact with. As a result shuts down chemical reactions in the contaminated area and loss of capacity.
Since the oil floats on the top, I don't see how it's going to contact the plates, even if it's proven that oil on plates will affect the battery's capacity.
If you allow your electrolyte level to get low enough, oil will come in contact with the plates and game over. Charge your battery fast enough to agitate electrolyte, and oil will come into contact with the plates.
Anyways, you make a lot of good 'if' points, but I don't think they apply to the sites I've described. They are good 'if' points for anyone who is following the conversation and goes beyond the parameters I've described to keep in mind.
About the tip on coating your hands with oil or vaseline; That isn't a safe practice at all. Gloves designed to ward battery acid is the correct method to handle batteries where acid/skin contact is possible. Also, everything you touch, from the tools to your pen and paper where you are recording the cell sp levels and temperatures are going to get a nice oil coat on them. I don't my volt meter or hydrometer coated with oil even once, let alone a lifetime of use accumulation. I'm pretty sure if I had a safety audit and a safety observer saw me use oil instead of my gloves, I'd get written up.Comment
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I can remove acid, replace it with water and still achieve full specific gravity with the diluted electrolyte. The oil is not diluting, it's floating on top. So I don't understand what you are saying here.
You could not remove electrolyte and add water unless there is extra active material on the plates to allow you to get more SO4 into the water/electrolyte. Your point that you are not adding water, just oil is well taken. But if you start with a fully charged battery, you will not have enough SO4 in the volume of electrolyte to be able to go to the lowest discharge level you got before adding the oil. It will limit the range of the available capacity and SG level of the battery, but it will not necessarily result in any change in the SG when the battery is fully charged.
You know this how? Can you provide any data that confirms this or is this your speculation?
Since the oil floats on the top, I don't see how it's going to contact the plates, ...
Shake, tilt, etc. More of an issue for a mobile battery than for a fixed installation.
But don't you see? The oil prevents the electrolyte level from getting low enough, so the argument is moot.
The oll prevents evaporation, but the largest source of electrolyte depletion is usually gassing (hydrolysis of the water into hydrogen and oxygen), not evaporation per se. The oil will have not effect at all on that. Only voltage management will, and there are limits to that since you want some gassing to stir the electrolyte.
While their expensive catalyst lasts catalytic battery caps can recombine the hydrogen and oxygen into water and drip it back into the battery.
And an AGM battery with catalyst included can do the same as long as the gassing rate does not go too high and the temperature is kept under control.
My suggestion to you is that you take Sunking's political and social commentary with the usual grains (or rocks) of salt that are always associated with that type of discussion (which is allowed in this Forum only in the General Discussion topic, BTW).
Same in some cases for information about the latest unproven technology.
But when he speaks about the state of the art in proven battery technology, he is authoritative.
Although even then he is only infallible when speaking Ex Cathedra.
And sometimes, like all of us, he does not fully read what the previous discussion was talking about and attacks a straw man instead. When that happens, post a correction or clarification and move on.SunnyBoy 3000 US, 18 BP Solar 175B panels.Comment
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Plenty of evidence in manufactures literature about the changes, the recommended voltages went up from a few short years ago.. For example Trojan abandoned 3-Stage charging for RE or daily cycling using Bulk = 2.4, Absorb = 2.35, and Float = 2.25 to just a Daily Charge = 2.46 volts per cell or 14.8 on a 12 volt battery. EQ is 2.6 vpc or 15.6 volts and 14.8 is not EQ voltsLook for yourself. 3-Stage charging is not possible on solar, it is too damn slow, and an EQ charge is impossible on Solar
Since 1925 Trojan Battery Company been a leading manufacturer of deep-cycle flooded, AGM, and gel batteries as well as our new Trojan AES and lithium-ion batteries.
But take note that another Trojan manual omits this elevated-voltage extended absorb information altogether for agm, even though it goes into more detail on "daily charge" for FLA: Search for (I munged the link since I couldn't find it on Trojan's site, but see it elsewhere)
TRJN0109_TRJNUsersGuide
Interestingly enough, most people think of Trojan AGM's as having a limit of 14.4v during absorb. Much like Lifeline / Concord. YET in the QSG quick-start guide, they properly go into detail showing an absorb AND a "finishing" charge of 14.7v !! Float is 13.5v, but in most cyclic solar, you'll never reach C/200 anyway for that transition to float.
Anyway, this is what I follow for my agm's, but they are spec'ed for 14.7. Here, Trojan and Concorde are spec'ed for absorb at 14.4, but under cyclic duty ops, once again we are at 14.7v till your face turns blue, or the sun sets according to Trojan. This is what I follow by merely setting both my absorb AND float to 14.7v for my CC's that timeout too early, or have too high an end-current transition. Easy and simple.
The question I have for Lifeline/Concorde/SunXtender is that by stating your agm's CAN be equalized when you actually notice a loss in capacity, does that mean that they are being over-cautious with relatively low voltages for a cyclic environment, (14.4v max) and in that case can justify an EQ when that timid charging has taken it's toll? This is not meant to be an inflammatory accusation, and all batteries are not the same. But it does make me wonder if Lifelines have been "babied" too much in cyclic ops.Comment
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... when he speaks about the state of the art in proven battery technology, he is authoritative.
Although even then he is only infallible when speaking Ex Cathedra.
The only authority I speak with is that of my experience. I've got lots of vendor training on batteries, solar panels, chargers, but no formal engineering specific to those disciplines. I've taken that information I was trained on, and monitored the accuracy of the information as it applied to my specific application. Anecdotal, experiential (and perhaps even biased) information. My philosophy is; Do an A/B comparison and stick with what works for you. Be ready for the next B that challenges your A and set up the next A/B comparison and make adjustments as required.
Anyone who speaks with authority needs to realize there may be a need to authenticate what they profess to be fact if it isn't common knowledge or well known if asked. Since I only claim that I speak with experiential authority, then I'm off the hook of the need to find even one other person who can collaborate my findings. Ha! I only claim my facts to be factual for my specific situation and do not promise the same level of performance for anyone else. You'll just have to do your own testing to see what works best for you.Comment
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About the tip on coating your hands with oil or vaseline; That isn't a safe practice at all. Gloves designed to ward battery acid is the correct method to handle batteries where acid/skin contact is possible. Also, everything you touch, from the tools to your pen and paper where you are recording the cell sp levels and temperatures are going to get a nice oil coat on them. I don't my volt meter or hydrometer coated with oil even once, let alone a lifetime of use accumulation. I'm pretty sure if I had a safety audit and a safety observer saw me use oil instead of my gloves, I'd get written up.
As for the baby and Vaseline talk was using sense of humor to illustrate a very easy to understand point that any grease or oil repels acid and water preventing any chemical reaction. Oils and greases are extremely good insulators and super chemical barriers against things like POOP. It was a joke like this is intended with the Font.MSEE, PEComment
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A lot goes on in a conversation on-line that gets skipped.
Any time I read about a way to do something 'better' I must acknowledge the responsibility that I'm doing this with my eyes wide open. Important steps are usually left out of discussions on line. You point that out well. Thanks for addressing.Comment
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Um, getting back to AGM for a moment, (which I think is important for lurkers who might confuse the differing voltage requirements from FLA), the max-smoke model from Trojan for agm is an extended absorb, since they don't allow for equalization. Basically down to C/200 under absorb, which one will likely NEVER get to in a cyclic solar setup, so one can for the most part forget float. The docs for the AGM Quick Start Guide are here:
Since 1925 Trojan Battery Company been a leading manufacturer of deep-cycle flooded, AGM, and gel batteries as well as our new Trojan AES and lithium-ion batteries.
But take note that another Trojan manual omits this elevated-voltage extended absorb information altogether for agm, even though it goes into more detail on "daily charge" for FLA: Search for (I munged the link since I couldn't find it on Trojan's site, but see it elsewhere)
TRJN0109_TRJNUsersGuide
Interestingly enough, most people think of Trojan AGM's as having a limit of 14.4v during absorb. Much like Lifeline / Concord. YET in the QSG quick-start guide, they properly go into detail showing an absorb AND a "finishing" charge of 14.7v !! Float is 13.5v, but in most cyclic solar, you'll never reach C/200 anyway for that transition to float.
Anyway, this is what I follow for my agm's, but they are spec'ed for 14.7. Here, Trojan and Concorde are spec'ed for absorb at 14.4, but under cyclic duty ops, once again we are at 14.7v till your face turns blue, or the sun sets according to Trojan. This is what I follow by merely setting both my absorb AND float to 14.7v for my CC's that timeout too early, or have too high an end-current transition. Easy and simple.
The question I have for Lifeline/Concorde/SunXtender is that by stating your agm's CAN be equalized when you actually notice a loss in capacity, does that mean that they are being over-cautious with relatively low voltages for a cyclic environment, (14.4v max) and in that case can justify an EQ when that timid charging has taken it's toll? This is not meant to be an inflammatory accusation, and all batteries are not the same. But it does make me wonder if Lifelines have been "babied" too much in cyclic ops.
Ten years ago battery manufactures customers were Commercial and Industrial customers like Golf Cart, Floor Machines, RV, Marine, Fork Lifts etc... Those markets acceepted a battery to only last 2 or 3 years and used good 3-stage battery chargers all powered from AC.
Today a new customer has appeared and it makes up a large part of the market. RE users and they have been mad at battery manufactures for 10 years because 2 or 3 years is not acceptable. They expect the 5 years the warranty covers. Trojan and all manufacturers have been slammed with warranty claims. Root cause of failures is Chronic Under Charging by solar users. Ten years ago the manufactures ignored you because the market was so small you were not worth the time and expense to fuss with. . Just 2 years ago if you looked at Trojan Charging specs you had:
Absorb = 14.4 until current tapers to .01C
Float = 13.6
EQ = 14.7 to 15 volts
Remember those days? Don't deny it anyone, it is fact. In fact that was default for most all AC chargers and the new fangled Solar Charge Controllers that were coming out . Check it out nearly every Solar CC, AC 33-Stage Battery charger default is 14.2, 13.6, and 15.0. Not today all that has changed. Today Trojan recommends:
Absorb aka Daily Charge = 14.8 volts.
Float = 13.2 volts
EQ = 15.5 volts.
Those are not SK numbers, those are direct from the manufacture. Not even close to what they were two years ago. Nothing changed with the batteries, the application changed. Reason is simple you cannot use AC charging methods with Solar because Solar is too Soft and inconsistent. AC charger set points takes to damn long up to 12 hours to get through Absorb. What I am saying is how to Zero In and tune your system. Unfortunately for most of you will find there is no Voltage High enough to keep your batteries charged up. All you can do is set for maximum smoke to force your MPPT Controller into MPPT and harvest every possible watt hour the panels can generate. Still will not be enough, but a lot more if you use antiquated methods made for AC chargers.
Yesterday you operated on the Sulfated side of the knife, today operate on the knife's edge or on the right side of corrosion. You have to choose, and default is the Sulfate under-charged side that results in pre-mature failure. Time to move up to fully charged and the corrosion side of the knife edge. You cannot have both.MSEE, PEComment
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in my climate (coastal northern calif) to reduce generator runtime in winter, I have an "overpaneled" PV array. Summer, I too, am in float by noon, and get 200 - 300 minutes of float.
Winter, I pray to get through Absorb.
I also change Bulk/Absorb voltage settings & Absorb times, from summer to winter, and hit the batteries a bit harder in winter. With a NiFe battery bank, I'm mostly trying to save distilled water, low charge is not a killer on them like it is for Pb H2SO4 cellsPowerfab top of pole PV mount (2) | Listeroid 6/1 w/st5 gen head | XW6048 inverter/chgr | Iota 48V/15A charger | Morningstar 60A MPPT | 48V, 800A NiFe Battery (in series)| 15, Evergreen 205w "12V" PV array on pole | Midnight ePanel | Grundfos 10 SO5-9 with 3 wire Franklin Electric motor (1/2hp 240V 1ph ) on a timer for 3 hr noontime run - Runs off PV ||
|| Midnight Classic 200 | 10, Evergreen 200w in a 160VOC array ||
|| VEC1093 12V Charger | Maha C401 aa/aaa Charger | SureSine | Sunsaver MPPT 15A
solar: http://tinyurl.com/LMR-Solar
gen: http://tinyurl.com/LMR-ListerComment
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