Making a 12 Volt Battery Bank Using QTY 6 of 6 Volt GC2 Batteries

[PNjunction]

I slipped up on my radios. On the FT-450s did you have the original or the "D": version . I am lucky and do have the "D" version and am hoping that may have been addressed. Also it was late last nite , I have the FT-857 not the FT-897 just to be clear. I also have the Lil FT-817nd. That will be nice to just listen and sip current and do some QRP work..

Mine were the D version supposedly after the update. My problems seem to start when the dc voltage was actually about 12.5v or less. Prior, they lived on a well regulated 13.8v Astron or Samlex supply. The 857 makes a fine choice too. Note that out of the box, they sound too "wide" on rx, and that is because one needs to activate the [DBF] bandpass filtering, AND also set the LPF and HPF to something reasonable, like 300hz lpf, and 2700hz hpf. Thought I had a broken rig until I discovered that out of the box the lpf and hpf were about 0 to 5k! No wonder. Getting back on track now...

Question about initial setup. I have a BOSCH C3 Charger that is a smart charger. It does do 6 volt and 12 volt. Am I better off putting each battery on the charger for a first time top off OR do I go ahead and setup the bank and do 1 Charge off at a full 12 Volt?

Too small. You are looking at needing a 20A charger (or for that matter a solar array) since the minimum current that a flooded needs to keep the electrolyte from stratifying (differing levels of specific gravity) is C/12. Your cells are 215ah, so that means a minimum of about 18ah charge current. For a maximum, that would be about C/8, so once again 215 / 8 = 26.8A.

Bosch also says in their manual that your cells are about twice beyond it's limit. Perhaps as a *maintainer* once you have actually achieved a full charge would it be useful, and even then I'd just save it for smaller vehicle charging duty.

Inspect each of your cells, and create a pair that is closest in voltage to each other. Now use the 12v / 20A charger. Do likewise for other pairs. This will help ensure that you don't have a ugly mess of a time trying to parallel 8 of those all together, each in different states of charge, and having some cells vent, while others starve on the initial first charge.

WARNING - choose a quality charger, not a auto-parts store special. I am NOT FOND of Schumacher Speed-Chargers as they are too agressive for my needs of just normal charging.

Chargers are reviewed elsewhere, but one of the most common with decent quality is an IOTA. There are many. Just please avoid the auto-parts store chargers.



I have not touched the battery bank or connected anything up as of yet. And you only get one FIRST TIME. I have read a few forums where guys always said "You did do a first time EQ charge didn't you?"

Please, if Im wearing you guys out let me know. I have spent plenty of time looking on the internet and like I said I am not a noob. But I also find that when you get a live wire who knows his stuff, especially with SOLAR, best to double check whats out there. Just because its on the internet doesn't mean its right!

Thanks once again.[/QUOTE]

[Wyreless]

Once again more great info. I like the utilization of different sub-banks for different purposes.

I slipped up on my radios. On the FT-450s did you have the original or the "D": version . I am lucky and do have the "D" version and am hoping that may have been addressed. Also it was late last nite , I have the FT-857 not the FT-897 just to be clear. I also have the Lil FT-817nd. That will be nice to just listen and sip current and do some QRP work..

Question about initial setup. I have a BOSCH C3 Charger that is a smart charger. It does do 6 volt and 12 volt. Am I better off putting each battery on the charger for a first time top off OR do I go ahead and setup the bank and do 1 Charge off at a full 12 Volt? I have not touched the battery bank or connected anything up as of yet. And you only get one FIRST TIME. I have read a few forums where guys always said "You did do a first time EQ charge didn't you?"

Please, if Im wearing you guys out let me know. I have spent plenty of time looking on the internet and like I said I am not a noob. But I also find that when you get a live wire who knows his stuff, especially with SOLAR, best to double check whats out there. Just because its on the internet doesn't mean its right!

Thanks once again.

[PNjunction]

You cracked me up on the AMPS. My MAX will be a few 2 Meter/70CM Mobiles running at 50 Watts Max and either a Yaseu FT-450 or FT-879 which are both 100 Watt Base/Mobiles. 5/90 is fairly good scenario for me as well.

Ah, ok. Still much depends on how much time you intend to spend in emergency backup mode. Each one of those draws about 800 - 1000ma or so. Run 4 or 5 just on rx only for 24 hours and it really starts to add up quick. So your time factor is of great importance.

I went through two 450's and could swear that the vfo encoder failed (bad skipping) when I ran it off of dc below about 13v on a battery. And some nasty qrm from the tft display to boot, even though grounded. Supposedly that has been fixed. The 879 of course has zero problems running from dc, lcd display no issues there either, and the voltmeter in the display is handy, but not accurate as far as what is actually at the battery terminals! Best to mentally compensate by comparing the reading between the display value and the measured terminal value with the non-hf multimeter. Guess we should leave the rest to another forum.

I have acquired some support gear over the years but a great and appreciated suggestion. I need the InfraRed Thermo and a good Hydrometer. The one I have is low end. I also believe that one of those battery fillers is not a bad idea for keeping the water topped off evenly. I also have the Wattmeter called Floureon TS-836 Watt Voltage Amps Meter (x2)

I'll let the guys with more experience with flooded chime in, but the basics are to charge no lower than C/12 nor higher than C/8 with flooded. Preferably temp-compensated. Don't take them below 50% DOD. The hydrometer is worth investing in a good one. The IR thermometer is VERY handy for tracking down any high-resistance hot-spots before the become a problem in your wiring, possible bad crimps etc. This is especially important if you do end up with a large series / parallel system where combined with the hydrometer you use the clamp-on ammeter to help spot imbalanced currents amongst the batteries.

Personally, I'd divvy those batteries up into smaller groups tasked to separate things. Like just two for radios, two others for emergency lighting / misc charging and whatnot, and if you must have a 3rd pair, a "hot-swap" standby or perhaps dedicated to solar-experimentation where you can abuse them for education and not do any mistakes on your radio / backup lighting pairs. Just a couple of ways to think about it.

Dont tell me I made a huge mistake and should lug all 6 back and get the better version. My backs still sore!

Tell you what - treat them AS IF they were Rolls-Surrettes or other very high-end batteries that cost much more. With care, Deka / East Penn batteries can do well. Try to see how far good maintenance will take you!

[Wyreless]

Differences between the $82 GC2 and the EGC2 $112, SAMS Duracell Golf Cart Batts

Here are the differences between the $82 GC2 and the EGC2 $112 and the comparison chart http://prntscr.com/80zgtd in case anyone is interested.

[Wyreless]

Ok, welcome to the 12v club, BUT maybe take a breather from buying more batteries. They are good learner batteries, and are in fact rebadged Deka/East Penn Pro-Masters.

Not sure if you picked up the flooded wet cells or the agm. The good thing is that you can find good docs about them online. Hint - look for Deka's "Renewable Energy Charging Paramaters" pdf document to get an idea of where we are headed. They are NOT their photovoltaic line, but will give an overview of what's to come.

I don't know what your inventory is like, but instead of buying more batteries, how about making sure you have some good gear on hand first? Like clamp-on ammeters, a DECENT multimeter, a GOOD hydrometer (if you have the flooded), and an infrared IR pointer thermometer. Pick up a P3 International Kill-A-Watt meter while you are at it.

Thing is, without making measurements first, we don't know if you'll be able to sustain that Henry 2K down in the basement, or even an ALS-600 amp. Are you doing the typical 5/90 transmit / receive ratio, or do you talk a little bit more? Without knowing, your huge bank may only last an hour. Or perhaps your investment will need to be resupplied in only two short years.

I'd take a breather and just be qrv for the moment.

You cracked me up on the AMPS. My MAX will be a few 2 Meter/70CM Mobiles running at 50 Watts Max and either a Yaseu FT-450 or FT-879 which are both 100 Watt Base/Mobiles. 5/90 is fairly good scenario for me as well.
I have acquired some support gear over the years but a great and appreciated suggestion. I need the InfraRed Thermo and a good Hydrometer. The one I have is low end. I also believe that one of those battery fillers is not a bad idea for keeping the water topped off evenly. I also have the Wattmeter called Floureon TS-836 Watt Voltage Amps Meter (x2)

So now your telling me that the 3 Red Harbor Freight $3 Multimeters are not "High End" (I think I may have gotten 1 free actually) I do have a few decent multimeters though LOL. And I like the Clamp On Ammeter idea, another great suggestion.
Last but not least I got the Flooded GC2s from Sams I ran the numbers in my head and figured that the EGC2 that they had for almost $40 more with the same 1 yr warranty and minimal increase in amps was not worthy it. In fact I think the savings bought me another battery. Dont tell me I made a huge mistake and should lug all 6 back and get the better version. My backs still sore!

Thanks for all of your input. Real good stuff
73 de Ron

[PNjunction]

Not sure if you picked up the flooded wet cells or the agm. The good thing is that you can find good docs about them online. Hint - look for Deka's "Renewable Energy Charging Paramaters" pdf document to get an idea of where we are headed. They are NOT their photovoltaic line, but will give an overview of what's to come.

Yeah, still quoting myself while the forum gets some bugs ironed out ...

That is actually "Renewable Energy Charging Paramaters-1913" pdf

And being in the 12v club, that also means we are automatically members of the "voltage drop" club. Short runs - large gauge wiring and so forth. I'm sure more to come, but getting some numbers on how much power you are drawing -over time- will get you to your goal the quickest.

[Living Large]

(This is probably gonna give you all laughs) I just want to have enough availability to run some Radios, maybe a fan, 55 in LCD TV, Laptop PC and Cable Modem and in the winter an 500-100-1500 Watt Oil Filled Heater (I have Kerosene and Propane Heaters as well) {large snip}

Is this a mess or what?

Someone beat me to it, but I'll chime in that you'll be in a mess if you plan on using a 500-1000-1500 heater on your 12V solar system, I can guarantee you that. There is a fellow here who uses 100% electric appliances like ovens with his solar system, but he runs his generator constantly while they are on. And I doubt he has a 12V system.

Consider this: your 500-1000-1500W heater will draw 42-84-126 amps You say you have propane and kerosene - use those energy sources or wood or pellets or something else to heat your toes. Allowing the solar system to implode for incidental heat will be a very expensive proposition - you'll lost the abily to watch the 55" to boot - adding insult to injury.

[PNjunction]

I am kind of stuck at a 12 Volt Bank because in my case it just makes more $$ sense. I have the controllers, the panels and the Inverter to do a nice 12 volt system. I'm also an Amateur Radio enthusiast and most all of my emergency gear works on 12 volts. I can really thrive nicely with a nice 12 Volt Bank. This is more of a serious home emergency backup system.

Ok, welcome to the 12v club, BUT maybe take a breather from buying more batteries. They are good learner batteries, and are in fact rebadged Deka/East Penn Pro-Masters.

Not sure if you picked up the flooded wet cells or the agm. The good thing is that you can find good docs about them online. Hint - look for Deka's "Renewable Energy Charging Paramaters" pdf document to get an idea of where we are headed. They are NOT their photovoltaic line, but will give an overview of what's to come.

I don't know what your inventory is like, but instead of buying more batteries, how about making sure you have some good gear on hand first? Like clamp-on ammeters, a DECENT multimeter, a GOOD hydrometer (if you have the flooded), and an infrared IR pointer thermometer. Pick up a P3 International Kill-A-Watt meter while you are at it.

Thing is, without making measurements first, we don't know if you'll be able to sustain that Henry 2K down in the basement, or even an ALS-600 amp. Are you doing the typical 5/90 transmit / receive ratio, or do you talk a little bit more? Without knowing, your huge bank may only last an hour. Or perhaps your investment will need to be resupplied in only two short years.

I'd take a breather and just be qrv for the moment.

[Wyreless]

Whoa.
You should not even consider using a resistance heater running off batteries. It would consume
500W @ 12V = 45A
1,0000W @ 12V = 90A
and after a few minutes, the batteries will fade from abuse and the inverter will shut down. Rely on the Kero and propane heaters.

\\

Hey Mike Welcome to the party. I was fairly sure that the Heater was not realistic but I threw it out there, I thank you for the numbers

[Mike90250]

... in the winter an 500-100-1500 Watt Oil Filled Heater (I have Kerosene and Propane Heaters as well)....

Whoa.
You should not even consider using a resistance heater running off batteries. It would consume
500W @ 12V = 45A
1,0000W @ 12V = 90A
and after a few minutes, the batteries will fade from abuse and the inverter will shut down. Rely on the Kero and propane heaters.

[Wyreless]

Ok guys, once again more great info.
Lets start with my amp hr requirements. I really do not have a stated requirement (This is probably gonna give you all laughs) I just want to have enough availability to run some Radios, maybe a fan, 55 in LCD TV, Laptop PC and Cable Modem and in the winter an 500-100-1500 Watt Oil Filled Heater (I have Kerosene and Propane Heaters as well)

Like I said, I have just really enjoy the technology side of all of this and just want to be ready in an emergency. But Id rather THRIVE than SURVIVE.

As to charging capabilities. My plan right now is as such. I have a 45 W Harbor Freight Kit thats been on the roof for over three years. Its been a toy to get me into the hobby. (I in no way believe this will be integral into this new system )Now, I have QTY 6 of the DM Solar 145 Watt Panels that were popular on Amazon a few years back. (Not deployed) These will eventually be coupled with a already bought XANTREX C60. As for inverters, I currently have QTY of two 1 KW Pre Sine Inverters sold by FUSION outta South Carolina. I do plan to upgrade to a single 3 to 5KW down the road
I also have a 4KW Gas Generator that I can use for charging as well.

All of my Solar has been aquirred over the last 2-3 years after I got my HF Kit. But as an old fat guy, my hangup has been getting the 6 panels on the roof. But since we have had 3 power outages this summer already I decided to get some batteries and get moving.BTW, in a real disaster, I can deploy a folding 100 Watt Portable Panel (2 x 50W ). Almost forgot about that!

For right now, I have a new Marine Dual Bank Battery Charger that I was going to use in the Battery Tender mode to keep the Bank topped off and just use for Emergency Power. Thats what I was doing when I started with the 6 x 6 Battery Bank questions

Is this a mess or what? But you all were helpful and asked what my deal was, so here it is. I figured was more polite to answer your questions , even as complex as this ended up being. Feel Free to tell me what you all think, besides I have buying issues and am a Solar Addict. (: OK, thats what we got!

Thanks again! Your answers are top notch

[SunEagle]

Thanks Guys/ Gals,
What I did was buy the most Batts that I had cash on hand for. But as I get into this "after the fact" I am really thinking that I should get 2 more Batts and have a 8 Battery system, affordability or not. I want to really try and maximize my return on on my battery investment and not be some guy 1 year from now giving advice out about how not to fry $960 by not asking questions.

I am kind of stuck at a 12 Volt Bank because in my case it just makes more $$ sense. I have the controllers, the panels and the Inverter to do a nice 12 volt system. I'm also an Amateur Radio enthusiast and most all of my emergency gear works on 12 volts. I can really thrive nicely with a nice 12 Volt Bank. This is more of a serious home emergency backup system.

So, I think I will just do a 4 battery system, leave the extra two aside but maintained, and then get 2 more in a month or two. These are the SAMS club Duracell GC2s and I actually was lucky to get 2 that have a 1 month advance Date Code over the other 4. So I get two more with same date code next month and I think Ill be OK. Sorry for long winded reply.

OK that's my story and I'm sticking to it. And again, I really appreciate the voice of experience.

Suggestion for the future when that battery bank finally goes south. There are others out there that are true deep cycle.

If you need a 650Ah 12volt system then you can find batteries in lower voltages (2v, 4v & 6v) at 600 to 1000Ah ratings.

Trojan makes a 6v 695Ah battery like the IND13-6V. Just get 2 and wire them in series.

The big question is how many watt hour does your battery system need to be and how are you going to charge it?

[sensij]

Thanks Guys/ Gals,
What I did was buy the most Batts that I had cash on hand for. But as I get into this "after the fact" I am really thinking that I should get 2 more Batts and have a 8 Battery system, affordability or not. I want to really try and maximize my return on on my battery investment and not be some guy 1 year from now giving advice out about how not to fry $960 by not asking questions.

I am kind of stuck at a 12 Volt Bank because in my case it just makes more $$ sense. I have the controllers, the panels and the Inverter to do a nice 12 volt system. I'm also an Amateur Radio enthusiast and most all of my emergency gear works on 12 volts. I can really thrive nicely with a nice 12 Volt Bank. This is more of a serious home emergency backup system.

So, I think I will just do a 4 battery system, leave the extra two aside but maintained, and then get 2 more in a month or two. These are the SAMS club Duracell GC2s and I actually was lucky to get 2 that have a 1 month advance Date Code over the other 4. So I get two more with same date code next month and I think Ill be OK. Sorry for long winded reply.

OK that's my story and I'm sticking to it. And again, I really appreciate the voice of experience.

If you share more information about your expected loads, and the equipment you will use to charge the batteries, you may get more comments with respect to bank sizing, or other opportunities to improve your design.

You might also find that in the long run, you and your batteries will be happier in series at 36 V or 48 V with a DC-DC converter down to 12 V, so you don't have to work to keep the paralleled sets balanced over time.

[Wyreless]

Thanks to you both for prompt responses

Thanks Guys/ Gals,
What I did was buy the most Batts that I had cash on hand for. But as I get into this "after the fact" I am really thinking that I should get 2 more Batts and have a 8 Battery system, affordability or not. I want to really try and maximize my return on on my battery investment and not be some guy 1 year from now giving advice out about how not to fry $960 by not asking questions.

I am kind of stuck at a 12 Volt Bank because in my case it just makes more $$ sense. I have the controllers, the panels and the Inverter to do a nice 12 volt system. I'm also an Amateur Radio enthusiast and most all of my emergency gear works on 12 volts. I can really thrive nicely with a nice 12 Volt Bank. This is more of a serious home emergency backup system.

So, I think I will just do a 4 battery system, leave the extra two aside but maintained, and then get 2 more in a month or two. These are the SAMS club Duracell GC2s and I actually was lucky to get 2 that have a 1 month advance Date Code over the other 4. So I get two more with same date code next month and I think Ill be OK. Sorry for long winded reply.

OK that's my story and I'm sticking to it. And again, I really appreciate the voice of experience.

[sensij]

The goal is to minimize the total resistance, and to keep the same wire length and number of terminations on each battery circuit. What is illustrated is the idea of connecting each parallel battery (consider two batteries in series to be a single battery) to a single bus. As long as the wire lengths are equal, that is about as good as you can do, especially with an odd number of parallel batteries. That should be better than connecting each parallel battery to the next and running a single takeoff, even when done diagonally.

If all 3 negative and positive wires between each battery and the busses can not be equal due to the physical layout, the next best would be to make sure the total + and - going to each battery is the same. In other words, if one battery has a longer + wire, it should have a shorter - wire to compensate. Your illustration actually demonstrates this, but it is hard to know if it is just conceptual and a coincidence, or if you intended it that way.