Tesla announces "Powerwall" batteries

[Willy T]

realizing that this could go in any of the 1,233,456 tesla threads ... I found this most enlightening regarding the potential of these batteries :

http://seekingalpha.com/article/3132996-the-silliness-of-teslas-10kwh-back-up-battery?auth_param=10e4qn%3A1akc9ia%3A8c030ccd5cfa7abf3a090511d3ed9276&uprof=82&dr=1

it made me decide to sit back and watch this unfold for at least a couple of years yet

This thread has no concept of Power Shifting / Time Shifting and that is what this battery is all about. You'll never save anything with a backup Battery / Generator. This Battery is about saving instead of using $.30 a KWH power during a 4-5 hour period during TOU pricing for Grid support.

Meanwhile, for the same price, a natural gas back-up generator can run all your appliances for as long as the power is out.

Thus, for anyone with access to natural gas, there's no rational reason to buy the Tesla back-up battery.

[SunEagle]

realizing that this could go in any of the 1,233,456 tesla threads ... I found this most enlightening regarding the potential of these batteries :

http://seekingalpha.com/article/3132996-the-silliness-of-teslas-10kwh-back-up-battery?auth_param=10e4qn%3A1akc9ia%3A8c030ccd5cfa7abf3a090511d3ed9276&uprof=82&dr=1

it made me decide to sit back and watch this unfold for at least a couple of years yet

Nice article. Thanks for adding some clarity to what some of us have been trying to say.

Yes this is new battery technology and yes it may be useful to some people some time in the future, but for now don't jump in without knowing how shallow the water is.

[donald]

This thread has no concept of Power Shifting / Time Shifting ...............

No reason the system can do some of both arbitrage and backup. In the developed world, 90% most outages are predicted by the weather forecast. Simply don't use stored power when the weather forecast is bad.

Doing this function with software is easy. The problem may be figuring out the warranty. So I don't think this is a v1.0 feature. But there are a lot of possibilities.

[SunEagle]

This thread has no concept of Power Shifting / Time Shifting and that is what this battery is all about. You'll never save anything with a backup Battery / Generator. This Battery is about saving instead of using $.30 a KWH power during a 4-5 hour period during TOU pricing for Grid support.

So do the math and tell me that even shifting your usage from the $0.30/kWh Tier grid power to that battery is going to save you money after spending $7000 to install it?

[Willy T]

So do the math and tell me that even shifting your usage from the $0.30/kWh Tier grid power to that battery is going to save you money after spending $7000 to install it?

So how much are you going to save with a Battery and Inverter / Generator back up sitting there waiting on a power outage ?? With this battery you'll save maybe $2.00 a day and the Back up is free. How do you think a hybrid Inverter works ??

[donald]

So do the math and tell me that even shifting your usage from the $0.30/kWh Tier grid power to that battery is going to save you money after spending $7000 to install it?

There is apparently no cost justification in retrofitting to only arbitrage in the U.S. Which is good, because Tesla probably won't be able to meet demand as it is for a few years.

I think most people installing new solar will now be tempted by batteries. Batteries may not be entirely rational. But if we only made entirely rational economic decisions, we would all be driving a Honda Fit.

I have no memory of ever seeing a Honda fit, except in photos.

[SunEagle]

There is apparently no cost justification in retrofitting to only arbitrage in the U.S. Which is good, because Tesla probably won't be able to meet demand as it is for a few years.

I think most people installing new solar will now be tempted by batteries. Batteries may not be entirely rational. But if we only made entirely rational economic decisions, we would all be driving a Honda Fit.

I have no memory of ever seeing a Honda fit, except in photos.

Honda decided to only make the Fit available on the West coast until they got a feeling for the EV market. Like the other EV they too will slowly expand their market as the desire for owning one increases.

As for Tesla, they too are testing the market for a source of their battery technology. I have no issue with companies doing that to get a new product out.

I just don't care for presentations with a lot of glamor and glitz and very little engineering data to back up their claims or using those presentations to get people's hopes up thinking this type of technology will save them money and also help them to be "green". Unfortunately anyone using batteries will never be "green".

[SunEagle]

So how much are you going to save with a Battery and Inverter / Generator back up sitting there waiting on a power outage ?? With this battery you'll save maybe $2.00 a day and the Back up is free. How do you think a hybrid Inverter works ??

I agree having an emergency power system just sitting around and not being used will not have a payback, but the initial cost for a generator is much less than that 7kWh battery system and the potential of having some power during a grid outage lasting a couple of days goes a long way to paying for that generator.

It comes down to what is important to people. My 5500watt generator cost under $500 and while I have owned it for about 10 years I have used it only a half dozen times during a long power outage.

It might not have paid for itself but I have not spent much on maintenance and I have a wife that was happy to have our cold food stay good and fans for her to be cool when other people in our neighborhood did not. A happy wife is a big payback for me.

[Sunking]

Wanna know the real story. First it is well known Tesla Motors was invented and to this day lives off Corporate Welfare via tapping Al Bore's Carbon Trading Scam. If not for that there would be no Tesla. Musk receives $35,000 for every car sold from Al Bore Brokerage firm. That $35K is on top of what the customer pays.

Tesla is now set to tap into taxpayer money via California Self Generation Incentive Program, or SGIP. funds for load shifting. The story broke out last week in Renewable Energy World.com

So I can only assume the folks supporting Tesla are OK with Corporate Welfare. They should be because they also believe it is OK for them to receive Welfare.

[Sunking]

So how much are you going to save with a Battery and Inverter / Generator back up sitting there waiting on a power outage ?? With this battery you'll save maybe $2.00 a day and the Back up is free. How do you think a hybrid Inverter works ??

There is no backup capability with the 7 Kwh battery. It has one purpose and one purpose only. To be discharged every day during peak hours on grid tied system. Its target market is California.

[Willy T]

There is no backup capability with the 7 Kwh battery. It has one purpose and one purpose only. To be discharged every day during peak hours on grid tied system. Its target market is California.

I'll guarantee you SMA and others will figure out that one really quick when it becomes main stream. No one will let the battery sit there untapped. Connected to any Hybrid Inverter will let you use it's power bi directionally with Grid support.

[Sunking]

I'll guarantee you SMA and others will figure out that one really quick when it becomes main stream. No one will let the battery sit there untapped. Connected to any Hybrid Inverter will let you use it's power with Grid support.

IT IS NOT DESIGNED AS BACKUP. It is designed to dump everyday into the grid for load shifting. Tesla will not allow any other manufacture to support it. That is why you must use Solar City to install and maintain the system and required to be internet connected. If you want BAKCUP you have to use the 10 KWH version which is the same battery, just different firmware and for occasional use only in a UPS.

[Willy T]

IT IS NOT DESIGNED AS BACKUP. It is designed to dump everyday into the grid for load shifting. Tesla will not allow any other manufacture to support it. That is why you must use Solar City to install and maintain the system and required to be internet connected. If you want BAKCUP you have to use the 10 KWH version which is the same battery, just different firmware and for occasional use only in a UPS.

Speculation, no one could use a Grid tie Inverter without a reference voltage until the SMA TL-US Inverter. I see a future where what I have invested in becoming obsolete, it hurts, but its exciting at the as time to see the direction it's heading.

My Post , that must have gotten lost.

This thread has no concept of Power Shifting / Time Shifting and that is what this battery is all about.

[Ian S]

This is a technically oriented solar site. Ask a question, you get a free answer. Ask an inane question, you get a suitable answer. But we'll still hold your hand and direct you on a honest path. If you want a back rub and some yes sir, there are other sites that will give you that, but they are less technical, and don't care if you blow your money on junk.
Brutally honest here, since the mods don't get any sales commission, or any compensation at all.

And I've never figured out this internet bullying thing. we've not taken over your browser, you have an off switch.

Well then Mike, I suggest the "moderators" change the rules of conduct which currently read as follows (emphasis added):

10.2 INAPPROPRIATE CONTENT. You will not submit, post, upload, transmit, display, communicate, or otherwise distribute any User Content that: (a) is libelous, defamatory, obscene, pornographic, abusive, or threatening, or that promotes hate, violence or unlawful discrimination; (b) advocates or encourages conduct that could constitute a criminal offense, give rise to civil liability, or otherwise violate any applicable local, state, national, or foreign law or regulation; (c) is intentionally designed to mislead, disparage or embarrass others, or that reveals private information about others without their consent; (d) violates any of the prohibitions set forth in Section 10.3 below; or (e) advertises or otherwise solicits funds or is a solicitation for goods or services.

Of course, when certain fair-haired boys post some inanity, any "suitable answers" get shut down pretty quickly.

[donald]

There are other installers announced besides solar city.
The Powerwall isn't going to be hackable. But similar systems will fulfill different requirements.
While Mr. Negativity was quick to point out the $7000 installed purchase price, the lease is more interesting:

For a 10 kilowatt-hour system, customers can prepay $5,000 for a nine-year lease, which includes installation, a maintenance agreement, the electrical inverter and control systems.

Few people that understand technology are going to want the system for more than nine years. I certainly wouldn't pay an extra $2K to own it. If leasing price is similar for the 7kwh high cycle units, a 21kwh off grid lease might be $1500 a year.

What percent of off grid owners would pay $1500/year for a 21kwh battery system lease?