Enersys Cyclon Feedback

[Shockah]

Thanks PNJ...

Sorry, just couldn't get my head wrapped around it last night... and now I know why... 63A?!? LOL

3 hours is less than worse case.

Strange thing though, Is I have the same 68watt draw/50watt panel on cheapo AGM batteries,
and they're holding up after several months now of daily cycles.

The only reason I am intrigued by these expensive Enersys Cyclons is so I can hide them in the post...
but if they cost 5X as much and are more temperamental to charging routine,
then maybe I should use a bigger post to hide the cheapo battery

[PNjunction]

Ding - lightbulb went off ...

Enersys rates their batteries based upon the 10-hour rate, but if your application is drawing a low current that it really puts it into a 20-hour rate draw, then thanks to Mr. Peukert, your 25ah battery might actually be classified as say a 28ah battery. That might be enough to make a difference in the calculations, since you are not drawing 23% from the batteries, but something lower, like 20% or less. Enersys usually provides charts that show a variety of hour-rates other than just the default 10-hour rate.

In that case, you just *might* make it with a 60 watt panel. But since there is no limit on the inrush, you still have the option of going with a larger panel just in case. The only thing to avoid would be achieving the end of absorb well before your real solar insolation starts, and having it sit in the "faux float" elevated absorb voltage for 8 or more hours daily until the sun goes down.

But like they say, it is better to err on the side of slight overcharge, than err on the side of consistent undercharge. This is all temperature-compensated of course, preferably at the battery and not ambient.

[PNjunction]

You've just run into the way Enersys rates their batteries at the 10-hour rate, instead of the 20 hour rate.

You need to move the decimal point. What they are talking about at 1.5C for a 25ah battery would be charging it with about 37.5A CC/CV. At 2.5C, that would be hitting this 25ah battery with about 63A.

Can you imagine the shock you'd have running an array large enough to provide say 60A current to a mere 25ah battery? Welcome to the world of "tppl" my friend.

But even so, you still wouldn't make it with a 50 watt panel on a 25ah battery only drawing out 23%.

Napkin calc: 25ah battery * .23 = 5.75ah used daily.
50w / 18v = 2.77a from 50w panel under best conditions.
(5.75 / 2.77) * 1.78 compensation = 3.7 hours.

If you beefed that panel up to 60W, you would barely make it in three hours. BUT all agm's need a float after absorb is done, and we don't have that luxury of time, even if we do set both absorb and float voltages the same.

If you want to treat them right, with only 3 hours insolation, we need to get them into absorb as fast as possible, and still hold them there for awhile when absorb is finished for a "faux" float compensation.

If you used an 80 watt panel, you would achieve the end of absorb in about 2.5 hours, and by setting both your absorb and float to 14.7v, you can do a faux-float compensation of about 30 minutes. That would be my version of a minimum of health for an agm.

Many agm's are degraded by designing solely to reach the end of absorb without any sufficient float time. Hammer those tppl's if you can stay within budget.

[Shockah]

Do I have this correct?

1.5C/10
(25ah/10)x1.5 = 3.75a

2.5C/10
(25ah/10)x2.5 = 6.25a

[Shockah]

Help Please.



CYCLON APPLICATION MANUAL

cyclon charge rate.jpg

^^^
In section 6.5 and tables 6.1 & 6.2

What does "1.5C/10" and "2.5C/10" equate to on a 25ah (6x2v) 12v battery-pack?

Basically, the application will be cyclic, discharging 68watts (23%) nightly.

Charge:

• 50watt panel, rated at 2.7 A(Imp) 2.84 A(Isc)
• PWM charge-controller (looking into mppt, but assume pwm for now)
• 3 hour insolation

Is that charge sufficient to return these batteries to 100% capacity, on a sunny day?

Thanks!

[PNjunction]

Lead-Tin is primarily used in AGM batteries. It has a high energy density meaning it can deliver high currents, and significantly reduces thermal runaway.

Yeah, that is one thing that got me hooked when I first tested them. You should have seen it. I was hitting an Odyssey with about 1C charge current, with temp probes hooked up, IR laser pointer thermometer, bucket of sand ready, faceshield. All I was missing was a klaxon. Kinda' disappointed that there was NO drama, and only about a 5F degree rise above ambient. Fortunately, no hot spots.

Test 2 was pumping 5A into a teeny Cyclon 12v/5ah monobloc from an 85w panel/controller. Again, no drama but boy it sure looks unsafe! Doing that to a standard Powersonic agm would have been game over.

Just options. But yes, the absolute most expensive agm is not an Odyssey - it is one made out of Hawker Cyclons. Same stuff, but wow. You really are looking at Lifepo4 parity. (I'm trying not to sneak that in every message thread, but can't resist on this one solely from an options standpoint.)

[PNjunction]

If you see a rise to 14.9 volts on a controller set for 14.6, then you might be seeing edge-of-cloud effects.

Bzzt. Sorry but I spoke too soon. What you may be seing here is that some controllers have an "auto-eq", which activates on a monthly cycle more or less, raising the absorb voltage .2 - .4v higher than normal. It is not the 15.5v eq we are accustomed to doing with FLA. Usually, but check the manual. You may have just stumbled across it during that 28-30 day cycle that it does it for one day. Normally we like to disable that unless it agrees with your battery specs.

[Sunking]

OK guys there are a couple of things you need to know, because both of you have some facts mixed up.

There are 5 types of lead alloy that makeup all lead acid batteries.

1. Pure Lead. Pure lead is used in standby long term float applications, and only for LOW CURRENT Applications.
2. Lead Antimony used for cycling applications and often heavy equipment starting applications.
3. Lead Calcium for flooded lead acid standby and VRLA
4. Lead Selenium used for cycling and VRLA applications
5. Lead-Tin used for VRLA cycling applications where High Current is demanded.

Guess which one the Enersys Cyclon, Optima, and Concorde are? Give you a hint it is not #1 Pure Lead. Give up? Try number 5 Lead-Tin.

What Enersys and other manufactures are doing is pure marketing. The"Pure Lead designation is a marketing term referring to the lead they use with Tin is 99.5 % pure lead. The pure lead battery has the advantage of being very long lived and reasonably resistant to damage by elevated temperatures and over charging. However, it has very low power density and is not able to produce large currents.

Lead-Tin is primarily used in AGM batteries. It has a high energy density meaning it can deliver high currents, and significantly reduces thermal runaway.

[Shockah]

Thanks...

Gonna shop for the best price on (6) Cyclons...
then move forward with the prototype.

[PNjunction]

It seems to be available in this guys home page: ( I don't like linking to pdf's)

http://aaron.birenboim.com/EV/

Also see the EVhandbook4hawkerBatteries application guide there.

Very good archeological material when pure-lead was vying against nimh for EV use back in the 98 timeframe. THIS is where the common misunderstanding that Odyssey's need to see 0.4C minimum current to charge came from, but it had to do with TIME so that users wouldn't undercharge their EV's.

But even knowing that, tppl batteries don't like to be tickled to death. Don't be afraid to hammer them, as long as you don't exceed the voltage limitation.

The whole point is that these things fit the application YOU want them to, they are just marketed to different consumer / business segments with different needs and purchasing procedures. Need a bigger version of the Cyclon to drive your military hardware - then a Hawker Armasafe Plus 6TAGM might fit. Thing is, you can basically use the cyclon application manual to charge that properly!

You can see why I was at first reluctant to try LiFePo4, with their single-page spec sheets, when I was used to full-blown application manuals.

[Shockah]

Check out the application guide. By only cycling to 25% or even less in your situation, you should be able to achieve 2000 cycles, or maybe 5 years or so.

Ok, now you got my ear...

I can't find this application guide you are referring to.

So, @ 22% DOD, and tweaking the Shneider C12, I'd get more than 3 years? That rekindles my interest...

[PNjunction]

Bottom line is these are too expensive to be gambling with the chance of only 200 cycles... I need at least 730

Check out the application guide. By only cycling to 25% or even less in your situation, you should be able to achieve 2000 cycles, or maybe 5 years or so.

[PNjunction]

They are application specific into any place that a pure-lead would be an advantage. Only shape, packaging, capacity, terminal connections and whatnot differ for the most part.

In essence, they are small single-cell versions of Enersys Odyssey for consumers. Or the Enersys Genesis repackaged and marketed for commercial users - ups etc. Higher up the line is the SBS series for motive power and whatnot.

Search for the pdf on "Charging Pure Lead Tin Batteries: a guide for Cyclon and Genesis products" circa 1999. It belongs in every pure-lead lover's bookshelf. If you want to see the deepest details of the IUI algorithm, which later versions of the application manuals started to leave out entirely.

The basics are the same - an agm with many thin plates of pure lead with some tin additive to help prevent corrosion. Because there are so many plates, they can be deep cycled without needing large plates. Since there is only a fraction of tin, the pure lead and very tight compression means very low internal resistance.

Yeah, about 4 years or so of cycle life down to 50% DOD. Maybe 2000 cycles if you only shallow cycle down to 25% DOD. Back then, 80% DOD for EV was the prime target - but only 500 cycles if properly cared for. Moral - don't go to 80% DOD regularly.

Ok, I'm set - I feel you typing already.

[Shockah]

................

If it were me, I'd go with something like the Schneider/Xantrex C12, with remote temperature sensor. This unit allows you to dial in exactly what you want, rather than use pre-programmed dip switches....

Thanks for introducing me to the C12... I like it.

I've got some reading to do now...

http://www2.schneider-electric.com/resources/sites/SCHNEIDER_ELECTRIC/content/live/FAQS/230000/FA230373/en_US/c12_m.pdf

[Shockah]

Sincere thanks, PNJ & Sunking...

Mainly, I am intrigued by the 2.5" cylindrical shape of these batteries...
any benefits of superior manufacturing is a bonus.

In ways of aesthetics and theft deterrence, the Cyclons could revolutionize one of my designs.
Unfortunately, I'd be using them on a daily/cyclic application, not stand by power.

Bottom line is these are too expensive to be gambling with the chance of only 200 cycles... I need at least 730

On to the next brainstorm