Aquion Energy up and coming battery....opinions please

[Sundetective]

If you know how to read spec sheets like Voltage vs Capacity you would be too.

If you compare Apples to Apples of usable capacity at real world discharge rates it takes 312 AH of Aquion to equal 125 AH of FLA to 40 volts on a 48 volt setup.

It would take 6 stacks of Aquion S20 stacks weighing 1500 pounds filling a room, costing almost $7000, and a 2 year warranty. Or say 4 Trojan 30H 12 volt 135 AH 5 year warranty battery weighing a total of 250 pounds and total cost of $800.

Does that get your attention?

King,

Go to Google

Type in:

Youtube My Guy

[Sunking]

Why you so scared of AHI.

If you know how to read spec sheets like Voltage vs Capacity you would be too.

If you compare Apples to Apples of usable capacity at real world discharge rates it takes 312 AH of Aquion to equal 125 AH of FLA to 40 volts on a 48 volt setup.

It would take 6 stacks of Aquion S20 stacks weighing 1500 pounds filling a room, costing almost $7000, and a 2 year warranty. Or say 4 Trojan 30H 12 volt 135 AH 5 year warranty battery weighing a total of 250 pounds and total cost of $800.

Does that get your attention?

[OffGridHawaiian]

Sunking,

What happens when a couple of hair dryers fire up in that
9 bedroom rooming house in Hawaii ?
Does some bouncer with a billy club appear in the hallway.

The big house that is using the older First Generation of the
Aquion Energy, AHI Batteries ?

Are you saying Aquion Energy can't be my man ?
I kind of Likes them.

Bill Blake

Here's how it looks on a cloudy day. Full Charge happened around 3:00pmConext3115Cloudy.jpg

We still made it through the night with Hair dryers, microwave, 3 refrigerators, the jacuzzi running for an hour, our infrared sauna running 2 hours, lights on in every room. The washing machines (2) gets started before we start recharging. Still stayed above 50% SOC. using the old 1gen Aquions.

[Sundetective]

Why waste time.

I said Rolls so naturally the price is Rolls.

Where your 4 years warranty ?
How many prorated years?
He he he.

I needs 3 years full warranty - then 7 more. Makes 10 years.
Remember, old Bill know how they do

All I've seen from Lithium is Lip action and strokin.

Why you so scared of AHI.

Bill Blake

Twice that of Aquion. Aquion is two years and for an additional fee 5 years. Why would a battery with 10,000 cycle claim only come with a two year warrant and charge you extra for 3 more years?



I totally agree with you there, and with that said the last thing they would buy is Aquion as it is the most expensive option. If I going to spend a premium on a battery, I want to be able to use all that capacity, not just the top 60 to 65%. Kind of like a house, I would not buy one if I can only use 60% of it. I want what I paid for.




Now you are blowing smoke. $200/Kwh is high end FLA like Rolls. You are not even going to get Aquion to return your phone call for less than $480/Kwh.

[Sunking]

How many years of warranty do these LFP Banks give up or is it mostly
Lip action ?

Twice that of Aquion. Aquion is two years and for an additional fee 5 years. Why would a battery with 10,000 cycle claim only come with a two year warrant and charge you extra for 3 more years?

Capacity is capacity. People normally want cheaper is better.

I totally agree with you there, and with that said the last thing they would buy is Aquion as it is the most expensive option. If I going to spend a premium on a battery, I want to be able to use all that capacity, not just the top 60 to 65%. Kind of like a house, I would not buy one if I can only use 60% of it. I want what I paid for.

So you don't like $200 per kWh with years of warranty.
That's your business - not mine.

Now you are blowing smoke. $200/Kwh is high end FLA like Rolls. You are not even going to get Aquion to return your phone call for less than $480/Kwh.

[Sundetective]

Now I need two banks? One large due to its low energy density, and the other extremely heavy. When I can buy some small, lightweight LFP that will do what I need and be done with it?

Old Don wasn't born yesterday. Money IS an object. No science experiments or science fiction for me.

How many years of warranty do these LFP Banks give up or is it mostly
Lip action ?

Capacity is capacity. People normally want cheaper is better.
Old Bill doesn't try to sell anything.

So you don't like $200 per kWh with years of warranty.
That's your business - not mine.

Other than checking in a few times per year I don't care too much.

Bill Blake

[Sunking]

TODAY if I had to spend it would be Rolls 5000 or Crown.

Will we agree there, and I would not recommend either LFP or AHI just for the simple facts FLA is still the best short and long term value. But if I had to choose between LFP or AHI, no doubt I would go with LFP. AHI just has too many negatives and unknowns which only time will tell.

[Sunking]

You're a biased salesman so I won't be buying them from you.

The AHI battery I am looking at won't be setting me back $50k.

Straw man argument. It will still cost you three times more at any scale. Plus will need 15 to 20% more panel wattage to make up the efficiency

That would total about $9700. Not bad for a battery that after 10,000 cycles (with average daily DOD of 25%), will still have 80% usable capacity.

I certainly would not wager a penny on that bet. There is no data to support that claim, and certainly no track record to back it up with a product that just came out on the market. It will be another 15 years before that can can be confirmed.

[Living Large]

Who's buying ?

Exploring.

Aquion Trek, The Third AHI Generation

hasn't even Landed yet.

TODAY if I had to spend it would be Rolls 5000 or Crown.
Period.

If money was no object a Slave Bank that tended to the prevention of
Sufation Disease would be nice in addition to the main bank.

AHI is a contender to be a good slave bank to FLA as is Lithium and NiFe.

Now I need two banks? One large due to its low energy density, and the other extremely heavy. When I can buy some small, lightweight LFP that will do what I need and be done with it?

Old Don wasn't born yesterday. Money IS an object. No science experiments or science fiction for me.

[northerner]

As a salesman I sell two systems. One is LFP, and the other is AHI. Here is my sales pitch.

For $50K dollar I can sell you a AHI battery and they may very well trip off-line you refrigerator turns on and puts you in the dark. You cannot use the bottom 40% of the power. No one knows how long they might last. Manufacture claims maybe 10 years but only warrants them for 1 year. Who knows. The batteries are not compatible with any battery powered equipment.

For $18K I can set you up with LFP that will exceed all your high demand expectations. You can access almost 100% of the power but we limit it to 80% to extend the battery cycle life from 2000 to 3000 cycles. They are fully compatible with any 12, 24, 48, 60, 72, 84,96..... volt battery equipment on the market. Lithium batteries have been around for 30 years, not mature yet, but a lot longer proven track record.

I know which battery I am going to buy. Do you?

You're a biased salesman so I won't be buying them from you.

The AHI battery I am looking at won't be setting me back $50k. I figure I would need about quantity 12 S20 stacks, and they currently retail for $1150 each, so that would be closer to $14k. If one waits to years end or after, which I will do, the stacks are expected to be about 70% of current price or about $800 each. That would total about $9700. Not bad for a battery that after 10,000 cycles (with average daily DOD of 25%), will still have 80% usable capacity. If you do the math, that works out to 13.1 cents per kwh (at the projected price). There's no way an LFP battery can operate at that price point! Especially considering that lithium prices are currently on the rise.

[Sundetective]

Who's buying ?

Exploring.

Aquion Trek, The Third AHI Generation

hasn't even Landed yet.

TODAY if I had to spend it would be Rolls 5000 or Crown.
Period.

If money was no object a Slave Bank that tended to the prevention of
Sufation Disease would be nice in addition to the main bank.

AHI is a contender to be a good slave bank to FLA as is Lithium and NiFe.
It no Lie

Things are in play. It's a fluid situation.
Then you may get a wild-card any day as well.

Bill Blake

We covered this extensively in a thread that went on for over a month.

That "slip" will not happen unless multiple failures occur, in the system I have planned. Could it happen if the backup to the backup dies? Yeah, I guess. The point is to integrate safeguards to avoid that situation. That's what all the discussion was based on - having a way to prevent disaster. Otherwise there was no point in discussing the merits of balancing.

Even if this DID happen, I could replace the LFP bank and still pay less than the AHI would cost overall.

[Living Large]

So 0% capacity but we are still at 40 Volts.
Has a real ring to it.

What happens if we have a problem and Lose that charge down to nothing ?

Or an accidental overcharge - just one time.

Do we put on 'Disco Inferno' by the Trammps and kiss da dollars away ?

Too many tales of woe over the years for my blood.

One single slip and you can be finished.

Bill Blake

We covered this extensively in a thread that went on for over a month.

That "slip" will not happen unless multiple failures occur, in the system I have planned. Could it happen if the backup to the backup dies? Yeah, I guess. The point is to integrate safeguards to avoid that situation. That's what all the discussion was based on - having a way to prevent disaster. Otherwise there was no point in discussing the merits of balancing.

Even if this DID happen, I could replace the LFP bank and still pay less than the AHI would cost overall.

[Sundetective]

So 0% capacity but we are still at 40 Volts.
Has a real ring to it.

What happens if we have a problem and Lose that charge down to nothing ?

Or an accidental overcharge - just one time.

Do we put on 'Disco Inferno' by the Trammps and kiss da dollars away ?

Too many tales of woe over the years for my blood.

One single slip and you can be finished.

Bill Blake

Good question, but a moot one. A 48 volt lithium battery aka 16S at 0% capacity is 40 volts. All inverters LVD are 42 volts. Higher end Inverters can be programmed to even a higher voltage LVD if one likes. So what is the problem? You would never reach 0% and well protected. In a properly designed system it is very unlikely you would ever have to depend on a inverter LVD.

It comes down to merits, performance, and economics.

As a salesman I sell two systems. One is LFP, and the other is AHI. Here is my sales pitch.

For $50K dollar I can sell you a AHI battery and they may very well trip off-line you refrigerator turns on and puts you in the dark. You cannot use the bottom 40% of the power. No one knows how long they might last. Manufacture claims maybe 10 years but only warrants them for 1 year. Who knows. The batteries are not compatible with any battery powered equipment.

For $18K I can set you up with LFP that will exceed all your high demand expectations. You can access almost 100% of the power but we limit it to 80% to extend the battery cycle life from 2000 to 3000 cycles. They are fully compatible with any 12, 24, 48, 60, 72, 84,96..... volt battery equipment on the market. Lithium batteries have been around for 30 years, not mature yet, but a lot longer proven track record.

I know which battery I am going to buy. Do you?

[Living Large]

Sunking,

Are you saying Aquion Energy can't be my man ?
I kind of Likes them.

I am saying I don't see them useful for what appears to be a common off-grid application - three or more days of autonomy and charging by generator. For the OP, they appear to be a good fit, much closer to the equator.

How many times can a person run Lithium Batteries stone dead
and still get to giggle bout it ?

Bill Blake

I have no idea what this means. If I run LFP 10% to 90%, I believe I have thousands of cycles. They will never be run "stone dead".

[Living Large]

Aquion is rating their product at 30 OR 40 Volts now
so as long as we know there can be a Voltage sag - so what.

60% DOD is plenty unless your out to run dem into the ground

I couldn't make AHI make sense if I ran them to 80% DOD in the winter, so 60% would certainly not work. LFP I can operate between 10% and 90%, AND they charge fast. These characteristics are important for me, in my location.