Aquion Energy up and coming battery....opinions please

[SunEagle]

Good question, but a moot one. A 48 volt lithium battery aka 16S at 0% capacity is 40 volts. All inverters LVD are 42 volts. Higher end Inverters can be programmed to even a higher voltage LVD if one likes. So what is the problem? You would never reach 0% and well protected. In a properly designed system it is very unlikely you would ever have to depend on a inverter LVD.

It comes down to merits, performance, and economics.

As a salesman I sell two systems. One is LFP, and the other is AHI. Here is my sales pitch.

For $50K dollar I can sell you a AHI battery and they may very well trip off-line you refrigerator turns on and puts you in the dark. You cannot use the bottom 40% of the power. No one knows how long they might last. Manufacture claims maybe 10 years but only warrants them for 1 year. Who knows. The batteries are not compatible with any battery powered equipment.

For $18K I can set you up with LFP that will exceed all your high demand expectations. You can access almost 100% of the power but we limit it to 80% to extend the battery cycle life from 2000 to 3000 cycles. They are fully compatible with any 12, 24, 48, 60, 72, 84,96..... volt battery equipment on the market. Lithium batteries have been around for 30 years, not mature yet, but a lot longer proven track record.

I know which battery I am going to buy. Do you?

Heck for $18k I'll get two.

[Sunking]

How many times can a person run Lithium Batteries stone dead
and still get to giggle bout it ?

Good question, but a moot one. A 48 volt lithium battery aka 16S at 0% capacity is 40 volts. All inverters LVD are 42 volts. Higher end Inverters can be programmed to even a higher voltage LVD if one likes. So what is the problem? You would never reach 0% and well protected. In a properly designed system it is very unlikely you would ever have to depend on a inverter LVD.

It comes down to merits, performance, and economics.

As a salesman I sell two systems. One is LFP, and the other is AHI. Here is my sales pitch.

For $50K dollar I can sell you a AHI battery and they may very well trip off-line you refrigerator turns on and puts you in the dark. You cannot use the bottom 40% of the power. No one knows how long they might last. Manufacture claims maybe 10 years but only warrants them for 1 year. Who knows. The batteries are not compatible with any battery powered equipment.

For $18K I can set you up with LFP that will exceed all your high demand expectations. You can access almost 100% of the power but we limit it to 80% to extend the battery cycle life from 2000 to 3000 cycles. They are fully compatible with any 12, 24, 48, 60, 72, 84,96..... volt battery equipment on the market. Lithium batteries have been around for 30 years, not mature yet, but a lot longer proven track record.

I know which battery I am going to buy. Do you?

[Sundetective]

Aquion Energy, AHI Batteries, on Trial .. as we speaks

Sunking,

What happens when a couple of hair dryers fire up in that
9 bedroom rooming house in Hawaii ?
Does some bouncer with a billy club appear in the hallway.

The big house that is using the older First Generation of the
Aquion Energy, AHI Batteries ?

Are you saying Aquion Energy can't be my man ?
I kind of Likes them.

How many times can a person run Lithium Batteries stone dead
and still get to giggle bout it ?

Bill Blake

• First we know it is not compatible with battery powered equipment designed to operate over a Pb discharge curve.
• Secondly does not allow the user to access all the usable capacity. Even FLA is expected to use as much as 80% when required. The full 100% capacity with FLA is usable if needed.
• Third eliminates any high discharge rates even momentary like a motor start up currents. It is a result of a battery with high Ri like NiFe
• Last and this is the really big one. The high Ri of the battery means really poor charge/discharge power efficiency. Now I know one Yankee is going to come back and say round trip charge deficiency is 85% which is a true statement and one battery manufactures use to dupe the uneducated battery user. The manufactures use Charge Efficiency with respect to Amp Hours. Problem is AH's go in at higher voltage than they go out. A battery with high Ri AH's goes in at a lot higher higher voltage than coming out. But we don't use Amp Hours to measure energy, we use Watt Hours. If you look at power efficiency, you are looking at a very poor 50% neighborhood which is a terrible neighborhood to live in. . What this means to an off-grid battery user, like NiFe, is you have to use a lot higher panel wattage to compensate, and that digs deep into your wallet. LFP is 100% Charge efficient, but again is a play on numbers quoting Charge Efficiency rather than Power Efficiency. Fortunately LFP Ri is extremely low so when we look at Power efficiency we are talking in the neighborhood of 95%, and that is the neighborhood you want to live in.

LFP is 1/3 the cost, last as long or maybe even longer than AHi, compatible with Pb systems operating requirements, extremely low Ri, 100% of the capacity is usable (80% recommended), and environmentally friendly. It is no contest between LFP and AHI.

[Sunking]

Aquion is rating their product at 30 OR 40 Volts now
so as long as we know there can be a Voltage sag - so what.

• First we know it is not compatible with battery powered equipment designed to operate over a Pb discharge curve.
• Secondly does not allow the user to access all the usable capacity. Even FLA is expected to use as much as 80% when required. The full 100% capacity with FLA is usable if needed.
• Third eliminates any high discharge rates even momentary like a motor start up currents. It is a result of a battery with high Ri like NiFe
• Last and this is the really big one. The high Ri of the battery means really poor charge/discharge power efficiency. Now I know one Yankee is going to come back and say round trip charge deficiency is 85% which is a true statement and one battery manufactures use to dupe the uneducated battery user. The manufactures use Charge Efficiency with respect to Amp Hours. Problem is AH's go in at higher voltage than they go out. A battery with high Ri AH's goes in at a lot higher higher voltage than coming out. But we don't use Amp Hours to measure energy, we use Watt Hours. If you look at power efficiency, you are looking at a very poor 50% neighborhood which is a terrible neighborhood to live in. . What this means to an off-grid battery user, like NiFe, is you have to use a lot higher panel wattage to compensate, and that digs deep into your wallet. LFP is 100% Charge efficient, but again is a play on numbers quoting Charge Efficiency rather than Power Efficiency. Fortunately LFP Ri is extremely low so when we look at Power efficiency we are talking in the neighborhood of 95%, and that is the neighborhood you want to live in.

LFP is 1/3 the cost, last as long or maybe even longer than AHi, compatible with Pb systems operating requirements, extremely low Ri, 100% of the capacity is usable (80% recommended), and environmentally friendly. It is no contest between LFP and AHI.

[Sundetective]

Aquion is rating their product at 30 OR 40 Volts now
so as long as we know there can be a Voltage sag - so what.

60% DOD is plenty unless your out to run dem into the ground
as we found out with Nickel Iron Batteries
once we got past the planted stories.

Aquion jacked the capacity of their Battery Module up by

+23% to +48%

(rounded down) depending on how we play the numbers.

AHI Discharge Current is now +25% over this Hawaii Experiment

without adding an inch or a pound to the MS100-LS82 Module.

However any of it has a Dark Side so that's what old Bill
is Looking at now.

With Lithium one good slip-up and your OUT of the Shrine.
The price of meat can quickly go up as your survival goes down.

Aquion claims abuse tolerance.
That's a good part of the investigation.
It's fun getting sold first.
Then we will weigh the situation.

Bill Blake

Let's face it, flooded lead acid batteries are given ah ratings down to 0%, yet it's recommended not to go below a 50% DOD on a regular basis. I think the AHI battery will be similar in that one would normally not want to go below about 50% DOD, to prevent inverter problems when loads come on, and also to maximize cycle life. What the manufacturer refers to is that the battery can be taken down to 0% SOC without significant consequences. Not necessarily something one would want to do on a regular basis. It may be possible to go down to about 20% SOC with very light loads.

The way I see it, batteries are the biggest expendable with an off grid system, due to frequent replacement. A battery that's priced reasonable, give reasonable performance, and most importantly, live for a very long, long time, will turn out being very cost effective!

[Sunking]

The way I see it, batteries are the biggest expendable with an off grid system, due to frequent replacement. A battery that's priced reasonable, give reasonable performance, and most importantly, live for a very long, long time, will turn out being very cost effective!

That will be lithium.

[northerner]

Me too. It will be interesting to see at what point in the discharge path the battery drops below 42v and how the inverter handles the issue.

Seems kind of crazy for Aquion to advertise a very deep DOD battery yet a standard inverter will stop working way before you get to that discharge point.

Let's face it, flooded lead acid batteries are given ah ratings down to 0%, yet it's recommended not to go below a 50% DOD on a regular basis. I think the AHI battery will be similar in that one would normally not want to go below about 50% DOD, to prevent inverter problems when loads come on, and also to maximize cycle life. What the manufacturer refers to is that the battery can be taken down to 0% SOC without significant consequences. Not necessarily something one would want to do on a regular basis. It may be possible to go down to about 20% SOC with very light loads.

The way I see it, batteries are the biggest expendable with an off grid system, due to frequent replacement. A battery that's priced reasonable, give reasonable performance, and most importantly, live for a very long, long time, will turn out being very cost effective!

[SunEagle]

I don't know about the OP's exact location, but Honolulu gets 5.5 hours of sun on average in winter. Where I would build a system, only 1.75 hours average in winter.

The OP reports he hasn't used his generator at all, in I believe at least a month of use, in the heart of winter. And the deepest discharge is 50% This blew my mind. I don't know if you could find someone who could say the same in NY. I contacted a real estate salesman just two days ago who happens to be off-grid in the area I am considering. As I expected, he says he uses his generator on average every other day for about 3 hours with his FLA batteries. In summer, he has more power than he knows what to do with - typical story.

I can see how this system meets the needs of the OP very well. A huge advantage is the insolation, even if I have the number off by 50%. If I could go solar and not have to think about using a generator off-grid, I'd be thrilled. Right now, I'm looking at about $28K for an LFP system and gen backup. An AHI system maybe $45K. If I had unlimited space, which I do not, maybe for an additional $10K I could double the size of my array to boost the charge current at non-peak hours. At peak hours, I am already at the recommended peak charge current of the batteries. But I also have total shading at the margins (before 9:30, after 3:00).

I am new to this, but personally AHI is impractical for my application. Doesn't mean it isn't a valid technology. These two scenarios are at the extremes. Sunny Hawaii @ 21 deg N, and cloudy NY @ 42 deg N.

Just some thoughts I have as a read about this system, and drool a bit. I am interested in learning more about the OP's experience.

Me too. It will be interesting to see at what point in the discharge path the battery drops below 42v and how the inverter handles the issue.

Seems kind of crazy for Aquion to advertise a very deep DOD battery yet a standard inverter will stop working way before you get to that discharge point.

[Living Large]

More info today from Conext Battery Monitor


DC Source ID House Battery Bank 1
Battery Voltage 47.5 V
Battery Current -35.5 A
Battery Temperature 20.0 ºC
Battery State of Charge 66 %
Battery Midpoint 1 Voltage 48.1 V
Battery Midpoint 2 Voltage 47.6 V
Battery Capacity Remaining 666 Ah
Battery Capacity Removed 334 Ah
Battery BTS Present No
Battery Time To Discharge 00h00m Min
Battery Average Discharge -354 Ah
Battery Average Discharge Percent -35.5 %
Battery Deepest Discharge -496 Ah
Battery Deepest Discharge Percent -49.8 %
Battery Capacity Removed 7893 Ah
Battery Capacity Returned 7593 Ah
Battery Number of Charge Cycles 7
Battery Number of Synchronizations 14
Battery Number of Discharges 0

I don't know about the OP's exact location, but Honolulu gets 5.5 hours of sun on average in winter. Where I would build a system, only 1.75 hours average in winter.

The OP reports he hasn't used his generator at all, in I believe at least a month of use, in the heart of winter. And the deepest discharge is 50% This blew my mind. I don't know if you could find someone who could say the same in NY. I contacted a real estate salesman just two days ago who happens to be off-grid in the area I am considering. As I expected, he says he uses his generator on average every other day for about 3 hours with his FLA batteries. In summer, he has more power than he knows what to do with - typical story.

I can see how this system meets the needs of the OP very well. A huge advantage is the insolation, even if I have the number off by 50%. If I could go solar and not have to think about using a generator off-grid, I'd be thrilled. Right now, I'm looking at about $28K for an LFP system and gen backup. An AHI system maybe $45K. If I had unlimited space, which I do not, maybe for an additional $10K I could double the size of my array to boost the charge current at non-peak hours. At peak hours, I am already at the recommended peak charge current of the batteries. But I also have total shading at the margins (before 9:30, after 3:00).

I am new to this, but personally AHI is impractical for my application. Doesn't mean it isn't a valid technology. These two scenarios are at the extremes. Sunny Hawaii @ 21 deg N, and cloudy NY @ 42 deg N.

Just some thoughts I have as a read about this system, and drool a bit. I am interested in learning more about the OP's experience.

[Willy T]

As a point of note, while other many XW units are rated to go to 40V, the XW6848 that the OP has is rated only to 42V.

Unless the Schneider Engineers changed the firmware when they set the system up, we do know the were on site. XW-6048, Aquion Firmware ver 1.10. ? Of course we don't know that the hardware capability is. Midnight Solar has had a set of Aquion Batteries for over a year tweaking a controller for them.

[northerner]

That would be stupid and ignorant at the same time. To use a battery that cost twice as much as LFP, when LFP can run circles around AHI in every performance metric you can think of. LFP voltage does not sag to any significance until of a discharge rate of 3C or more, where AHI collapses to unusable with just a very small C/8 current. AHI is on the same ground as NiFe of unusable and impractical. You cannot tap the lower 40% or load it heavily not to mention extremely inefficient.

There's more to the cost of the battery than the upfront cost. It all will boil down to cycle life, and that's where the AHI batteries will very likely have the advantage. Do the math. AHI has a potential cycle life of 10, 000 cycles to an average depth of discharge of 25%. However, calendar life of both options remains to be seen.

Other fact is LFP battery prices are increasing. AHI prices are expected to drop.

[Sundetective]

AHI S10's were 1st Generation - S20's today are 2nd Gen.

Where that 540 Ah for 1st Gen. Aquion Energy Modules came from I don't know.
They had several different Modules all claiming 489 Ah using
S10 Battery Stacks for the first generation -
like we have been talking about.

The same size Modules today using S20 Stacks are 612 Ah
down to 30 Volts.

604 Ah down to 40 Volts.

Quite a percentage difference.
There are lots of spreads and number but anyway you cut it
if they are honorable and true this technology is on the move.

Aqueous Hybrid Ion .. Generation 3

is warming up in the bullpen for Later this year according to 'da boys'.
We will see.


old Bill Blake

[Sunking]

As a point of note, while other many XW units are rated to go to 40V, the XW6848 that the OP has is rated only to 42V.

Which means sooner or later the OP will discover what that means, and it will be a fun and educational experience. He will be scratching his head wondering why his batteries still show 30 to 40% capacity, but his system has shut down from low voltage.

[Living Large]

I understand that people have a concern but this is an Aquion battery not a FLA or LFP. According to the manufacturer's claim it should easily go to 40volt. The issue is with the inverter running below 42v.

I am not worried about the battery, but concerned that the inverter will drop off-line at a SOC much higher than I would find acceptable. I don't know if I am interpreting correctly, but if the OP is using 35% of the battery capacity daily, that wouldn't work for me even if I could use 100%. But I can't get near that.

As a point of note, while other many XW units are rated to go to 40V, the XW6848 that the OP has is rated only to 42V.

[Sunking]

A boost from a small LFP battery pack would help alleviate the problem and extend the range of the AHI pack.

That would be stupid and ignorant at the same time. To use a battery that cost twice as much as LFP, when LFP can run circles around AHI in every performance metric you can think of. LFP voltage does not sag to any significance until of a discharge rate of 3C or more, where AHI collapses to unusable with just a very small C/8 current. AHI is on the same ground as NiFe of unusable and impractical. You cannot tap the lower 40% or load it heavily not to mention extremely inefficient.