Aquion Energy up and coming battery....opinions please

[northerner]

Me too. It will be interesting to see at what point in the discharge path the battery drops below 42v and how the inverter handles the issue.

Seems kind of crazy for Aquion to advertise a very deep DOD battery yet a standard inverter will stop working way before you get to that discharge point.

Let's face it, flooded lead acid batteries are given ah ratings down to 0%, yet it's recommended not to go below a 50% DOD on a regular basis. I think the AHI battery will be similar in that one would normally not want to go below about 50% DOD, to prevent inverter problems when loads come on, and also to maximize cycle life. What the manufacturer refers to is that the battery can be taken down to 0% SOC without significant consequences. Not necessarily something one would want to do on a regular basis. It may be possible to go down to about 20% SOC with very light loads.

The way I see it, batteries are the biggest expendable with an off grid system, due to frequent replacement. A battery that's priced reasonable, give reasonable performance, and most importantly, live for a very long, long time, will turn out being very cost effective!

[Sunking]

The way I see it, batteries are the biggest expendable with an off grid system, due to frequent replacement. A battery that's priced reasonable, give reasonable performance, and most importantly, live for a very long, long time, will turn out being very cost effective!

That will be lithium.

[Sundetective]

Aquion is rating their product at 30 OR 40 Volts now
so as long as we know there can be a Voltage sag - so what.

60% DOD is plenty unless your out to run dem into the ground
as we found out with Nickel Iron Batteries
once we got past the planted stories.

Aquion jacked the capacity of their Battery Module up by

+23% to +48%

(rounded down) depending on how we play the numbers.

AHI Discharge Current is now +25% over this Hawaii Experiment

without adding an inch or a pound to the MS100-LS82 Module.

However any of it has a Dark Side so that's what old Bill
is Looking at now.

With Lithium one good slip-up and your OUT of the Shrine.
The price of meat can quickly go up as your survival goes down.

Aquion claims abuse tolerance.
That's a good part of the investigation.
It's fun getting sold first.
Then we will weigh the situation.

Bill Blake

Let's face it, flooded lead acid batteries are given ah ratings down to 0%, yet it's recommended not to go below a 50% DOD on a regular basis. I think the AHI battery will be similar in that one would normally not want to go below about 50% DOD, to prevent inverter problems when loads come on, and also to maximize cycle life. What the manufacturer refers to is that the battery can be taken down to 0% SOC without significant consequences. Not necessarily something one would want to do on a regular basis. It may be possible to go down to about 20% SOC with very light loads.

The way I see it, batteries are the biggest expendable with an off grid system, due to frequent replacement. A battery that's priced reasonable, give reasonable performance, and most importantly, live for a very long, long time, will turn out being very cost effective!

[Sunking]

Aquion is rating their product at 30 OR 40 Volts now
so as long as we know there can be a Voltage sag - so what.

• First we know it is not compatible with battery powered equipment designed to operate over a Pb discharge curve.
• Secondly does not allow the user to access all the usable capacity. Even FLA is expected to use as much as 80% when required. The full 100% capacity with FLA is usable if needed.
• Third eliminates any high discharge rates even momentary like a motor start up currents. It is a result of a battery with high Ri like NiFe
• Last and this is the really big one. The high Ri of the battery means really poor charge/discharge power efficiency. Now I know one Yankee is going to come back and say round trip charge deficiency is 85% which is a true statement and one battery manufactures use to dupe the uneducated battery user. The manufactures use Charge Efficiency with respect to Amp Hours. Problem is AH's go in at higher voltage than they go out. A battery with high Ri AH's goes in at a lot higher higher voltage than coming out. But we don't use Amp Hours to measure energy, we use Watt Hours. If you look at power efficiency, you are looking at a very poor 50% neighborhood which is a terrible neighborhood to live in. . What this means to an off-grid battery user, like NiFe, is you have to use a lot higher panel wattage to compensate, and that digs deep into your wallet. LFP is 100% Charge efficient, but again is a play on numbers quoting Charge Efficiency rather than Power Efficiency. Fortunately LFP Ri is extremely low so when we look at Power efficiency we are talking in the neighborhood of 95%, and that is the neighborhood you want to live in.

LFP is 1/3 the cost, last as long or maybe even longer than AHi, compatible with Pb systems operating requirements, extremely low Ri, 100% of the capacity is usable (80% recommended), and environmentally friendly. It is no contest between LFP and AHI.

[Sundetective]

Aquion Energy, AHI Batteries, on Trial .. as we speaks

Sunking,

What happens when a couple of hair dryers fire up in that
9 bedroom rooming house in Hawaii ?
Does some bouncer with a billy club appear in the hallway.

The big house that is using the older First Generation of the
Aquion Energy, AHI Batteries ?

Are you saying Aquion Energy can't be my man ?
I kind of Likes them.

How many times can a person run Lithium Batteries stone dead
and still get to giggle bout it ?

Bill Blake

• First we know it is not compatible with battery powered equipment designed to operate over a Pb discharge curve.
• Secondly does not allow the user to access all the usable capacity. Even FLA is expected to use as much as 80% when required. The full 100% capacity with FLA is usable if needed.
• Third eliminates any high discharge rates even momentary like a motor start up currents. It is a result of a battery with high Ri like NiFe
• Last and this is the really big one. The high Ri of the battery means really poor charge/discharge power efficiency. Now I know one Yankee is going to come back and say round trip charge deficiency is 85% which is a true statement and one battery manufactures use to dupe the uneducated battery user. The manufactures use Charge Efficiency with respect to Amp Hours. Problem is AH's go in at higher voltage than they go out. A battery with high Ri AH's goes in at a lot higher higher voltage than coming out. But we don't use Amp Hours to measure energy, we use Watt Hours. If you look at power efficiency, you are looking at a very poor 50% neighborhood which is a terrible neighborhood to live in. . What this means to an off-grid battery user, like NiFe, is you have to use a lot higher panel wattage to compensate, and that digs deep into your wallet. LFP is 100% Charge efficient, but again is a play on numbers quoting Charge Efficiency rather than Power Efficiency. Fortunately LFP Ri is extremely low so when we look at Power efficiency we are talking in the neighborhood of 95%, and that is the neighborhood you want to live in.

LFP is 1/3 the cost, last as long or maybe even longer than AHi, compatible with Pb systems operating requirements, extremely low Ri, 100% of the capacity is usable (80% recommended), and environmentally friendly. It is no contest between LFP and AHI.

[Sunking]

How many times can a person run Lithium Batteries stone dead
and still get to giggle bout it ?

Good question, but a moot one. A 48 volt lithium battery aka 16S at 0% capacity is 40 volts. All inverters LVD are 42 volts. Higher end Inverters can be programmed to even a higher voltage LVD if one likes. So what is the problem? You would never reach 0% and well protected. In a properly designed system it is very unlikely you would ever have to depend on a inverter LVD.

It comes down to merits, performance, and economics.

As a salesman I sell two systems. One is LFP, and the other is AHI. Here is my sales pitch.

For $50K dollar I can sell you a AHI battery and they may very well trip off-line you refrigerator turns on and puts you in the dark. You cannot use the bottom 40% of the power. No one knows how long they might last. Manufacture claims maybe 10 years but only warrants them for 1 year. Who knows. The batteries are not compatible with any battery powered equipment.

For $18K I can set you up with LFP that will exceed all your high demand expectations. You can access almost 100% of the power but we limit it to 80% to extend the battery cycle life from 2000 to 3000 cycles. They are fully compatible with any 12, 24, 48, 60, 72, 84,96..... volt battery equipment on the market. Lithium batteries have been around for 30 years, not mature yet, but a lot longer proven track record.

I know which battery I am going to buy. Do you?

[SunEagle]

Good question, but a moot one. A 48 volt lithium battery aka 16S at 0% capacity is 40 volts. All inverters LVD are 42 volts. Higher end Inverters can be programmed to even a higher voltage LVD if one likes. So what is the problem? You would never reach 0% and well protected. In a properly designed system it is very unlikely you would ever have to depend on a inverter LVD.

It comes down to merits, performance, and economics.

As a salesman I sell two systems. One is LFP, and the other is AHI. Here is my sales pitch.

For $50K dollar I can sell you a AHI battery and they may very well trip off-line you refrigerator turns on and puts you in the dark. You cannot use the bottom 40% of the power. No one knows how long they might last. Manufacture claims maybe 10 years but only warrants them for 1 year. Who knows. The batteries are not compatible with any battery powered equipment.

For $18K I can set you up with LFP that will exceed all your high demand expectations. You can access almost 100% of the power but we limit it to 80% to extend the battery cycle life from 2000 to 3000 cycles. They are fully compatible with any 12, 24, 48, 60, 72, 84,96..... volt battery equipment on the market. Lithium batteries have been around for 30 years, not mature yet, but a lot longer proven track record.

I know which battery I am going to buy. Do you?

Heck for $18k I'll get two.

[Living Large]

Aquion is rating their product at 30 OR 40 Volts now
so as long as we know there can be a Voltage sag - so what.

60% DOD is plenty unless your out to run dem into the ground

I couldn't make AHI make sense if I ran them to 80% DOD in the winter, so 60% would certainly not work. LFP I can operate between 10% and 90%, AND they charge fast. These characteristics are important for me, in my location.

[Living Large]

Sunking,

Are you saying Aquion Energy can't be my man ?
I kind of Likes them.

I am saying I don't see them useful for what appears to be a common off-grid application - three or more days of autonomy and charging by generator. For the OP, they appear to be a good fit, much closer to the equator.

How many times can a person run Lithium Batteries stone dead
and still get to giggle bout it ?

Bill Blake

I have no idea what this means. If I run LFP 10% to 90%, I believe I have thousands of cycles. They will never be run "stone dead".

[Sundetective]

So 0% capacity but we are still at 40 Volts.
Has a real ring to it.

What happens if we have a problem and Lose that charge down to nothing ?

Or an accidental overcharge - just one time.

Do we put on 'Disco Inferno' by the Trammps and kiss da dollars away ?

Too many tales of woe over the years for my blood.

One single slip and you can be finished.

Bill Blake

Good question, but a moot one. A 48 volt lithium battery aka 16S at 0% capacity is 40 volts. All inverters LVD are 42 volts. Higher end Inverters can be programmed to even a higher voltage LVD if one likes. So what is the problem? You would never reach 0% and well protected. In a properly designed system it is very unlikely you would ever have to depend on a inverter LVD.

It comes down to merits, performance, and economics.

As a salesman I sell two systems. One is LFP, and the other is AHI. Here is my sales pitch.

For $50K dollar I can sell you a AHI battery and they may very well trip off-line you refrigerator turns on and puts you in the dark. You cannot use the bottom 40% of the power. No one knows how long they might last. Manufacture claims maybe 10 years but only warrants them for 1 year. Who knows. The batteries are not compatible with any battery powered equipment.

For $18K I can set you up with LFP that will exceed all your high demand expectations. You can access almost 100% of the power but we limit it to 80% to extend the battery cycle life from 2000 to 3000 cycles. They are fully compatible with any 12, 24, 48, 60, 72, 84,96..... volt battery equipment on the market. Lithium batteries have been around for 30 years, not mature yet, but a lot longer proven track record.

I know which battery I am going to buy. Do you?

[Living Large]

So 0% capacity but we are still at 40 Volts.
Has a real ring to it.

What happens if we have a problem and Lose that charge down to nothing ?

Or an accidental overcharge - just one time.

Do we put on 'Disco Inferno' by the Trammps and kiss da dollars away ?

Too many tales of woe over the years for my blood.

One single slip and you can be finished.

Bill Blake

We covered this extensively in a thread that went on for over a month.

That "slip" will not happen unless multiple failures occur, in the system I have planned. Could it happen if the backup to the backup dies? Yeah, I guess. The point is to integrate safeguards to avoid that situation. That's what all the discussion was based on - having a way to prevent disaster. Otherwise there was no point in discussing the merits of balancing.

Even if this DID happen, I could replace the LFP bank and still pay less than the AHI would cost overall.

[Sundetective]

Who's buying ?

Exploring.

Aquion Trek, The Third AHI Generation

hasn't even Landed yet.

TODAY if I had to spend it would be Rolls 5000 or Crown.
Period.

If money was no object a Slave Bank that tended to the prevention of
Sufation Disease would be nice in addition to the main bank.

AHI is a contender to be a good slave bank to FLA as is Lithium and NiFe.
It no Lie

Things are in play. It's a fluid situation.
Then you may get a wild-card any day as well.

Bill Blake

We covered this extensively in a thread that went on for over a month.

That "slip" will not happen unless multiple failures occur, in the system I have planned. Could it happen if the backup to the backup dies? Yeah, I guess. The point is to integrate safeguards to avoid that situation. That's what all the discussion was based on - having a way to prevent disaster. Otherwise there was no point in discussing the merits of balancing.

Even if this DID happen, I could replace the LFP bank and still pay less than the AHI would cost overall.

[northerner]

As a salesman I sell two systems. One is LFP, and the other is AHI. Here is my sales pitch.

For $50K dollar I can sell you a AHI battery and they may very well trip off-line you refrigerator turns on and puts you in the dark. You cannot use the bottom 40% of the power. No one knows how long they might last. Manufacture claims maybe 10 years but only warrants them for 1 year. Who knows. The batteries are not compatible with any battery powered equipment.

For $18K I can set you up with LFP that will exceed all your high demand expectations. You can access almost 100% of the power but we limit it to 80% to extend the battery cycle life from 2000 to 3000 cycles. They are fully compatible with any 12, 24, 48, 60, 72, 84,96..... volt battery equipment on the market. Lithium batteries have been around for 30 years, not mature yet, but a lot longer proven track record.

I know which battery I am going to buy. Do you?

You're a biased salesman so I won't be buying them from you.

The AHI battery I am looking at won't be setting me back $50k. I figure I would need about quantity 12 S20 stacks, and they currently retail for $1150 each, so that would be closer to $14k. If one waits to years end or after, which I will do, the stacks are expected to be about 70% of current price or about $800 each. That would total about $9700. Not bad for a battery that after 10,000 cycles (with average daily DOD of 25%), will still have 80% usable capacity. If you do the math, that works out to 13.1 cents per kwh (at the projected price). There's no way an LFP battery can operate at that price point! Especially considering that lithium prices are currently on the rise.

[Living Large]

Who's buying ?

Exploring.

Aquion Trek, The Third AHI Generation

hasn't even Landed yet.

TODAY if I had to spend it would be Rolls 5000 or Crown.
Period.

If money was no object a Slave Bank that tended to the prevention of
Sufation Disease would be nice in addition to the main bank.

AHI is a contender to be a good slave bank to FLA as is Lithium and NiFe.

Now I need two banks? One large due to its low energy density, and the other extremely heavy. When I can buy some small, lightweight LFP that will do what I need and be done with it?

Old Don wasn't born yesterday. Money IS an object. No science experiments or science fiction for me.

[Sunking]

You're a biased salesman so I won't be buying them from you.

The AHI battery I am looking at won't be setting me back $50k.

Straw man argument. It will still cost you three times more at any scale. Plus will need 15 to 20% more panel wattage to make up the efficiency

That would total about $9700. Not bad for a battery that after 10,000 cycles (with average daily DOD of 25%), will still have 80% usable capacity.

I certainly would not wager a penny on that bet. There is no data to support that claim, and certainly no track record to back it up with a product that just came out on the market. It will be another 15 years before that can can be confirmed.