I got some lithium batteries. Now what?

[Guest]

In original questions there were many loaded sublets of topics. In order to answer those, one must separate the issues.
1. Boat or Vehicle. Boat often more than 24V power rail and to charge or use Li batteries at the boat might not be possible as most of Li battery packs are so called 12V
2. Usage. Most of declared usage is impossible for Li packs, unless they are 150Ah or more. Problem comes from maximum discharge currents at the battery management side.
3. Charging. Most of battery packs can not allow fast charge. This might be a problem if you need to charge them fast.
My advice to be very careful with switching over to Li batteries. Many aspects of your usage have to be analyzed before you jump in to Li battery usage. Also there are so many different models, which are pronounced as "Li battery" but they are totally different from each other.

[PNjunction]

This is not a new phenomena, but a classic beginner's mistake - putting the cart before the horse presenting a shopping-list of "stuff" to buy without actually knowing the load requirements first.

Secondly, not doing homework to find out what "solar insolation" hours are especially during winter, and at his location. Being mobile in an RV makes the job that much harder.

Then asking us to do all the homework and fill out the shopping cart. Usually many other important details are not revealed until it is too late.

BUT, I understand it. Thing is, being "excited' about getting solar stuff is quite addicting - but usually very costly throwing so much at the dart board at one time.

Thus, it would be better to just start out with a much simpler setup to gain those solar skills over time, and make future purchases more worthwile.

[somekevinguy]

This is not a new phenomena, but a classic beginner's mistake - putting the cart before the horse presenting a shopping-list of "stuff" to buy without actually knowing the load requirements first.

Secondly, not doing homework to find out what "solar insolation" hours are especially during winter, and at his location. Being mobile in an RV makes the job that much harder.

Then asking us to do all the homework and fill out the shopping cart. Usually many other important details are not revealed until it is too late.

BUT, I understand it. Thing is, being "excited' about getting solar stuff is quite addicting - but usually very costly throwing so much at the dart board at one time.

Thus, it would be better to just start out with a much simpler setup to gain those solar skills over time, and make future purchases more worthwile.

What was the shopping list of stuff I presented? The only thing I bought was two lithium batteries. The only things I talked about buying was a big enough inverter so I could run a microwave, a charger relay so I could charge from my alternator and said I was thinking about 300 watts of solar.

Sorry I didn't know my load requirements in kwh but I know them in real life. I've been RVing for 40 years. I know what I can do with two regular 12 volt batteries and I know what I can do with four 6 volt batteries etc. This **** is so variable and intermittent all your calculations and charts are a bunch of theory bull**** that aren't real world. Its a van with tons of variables and limitations not a house or shed with fixed loads and tons of room solar and batteries. This is something I'm taking out for weekends and maybe a week or two once or twice a year. The only thing I'm a beginner at is the solar part.

Coming here and reading and asking questions was me doing my homework but I guess you guys are too good for that. Your're on a higher level. You guys are like the Bruce Lee of solar and I guess I needed to start out taking lessons at the YMCA first before I bothered you guys.

Solar insolation?! Give me a break as you say since its a mobile application it's not a constant anyway and I think whether I happened to be parked near some trees or something makes more of a difference anyway. It's like I already said you guys expect people to know everything already and do all these calculations and give you all my information in the exact right format. If I do all that what the **** do I need you guys for then?

What is a simple solar setup? I said I was thinking about a 300 watt setup. Does it get any simpler than a panel and a charger controller?

Sorry I asked you guys to do too much homework for me. What a bunch of assholes. Everywhere I've seen this place mentioned was also sure to mention you guys were assholes. They were all correct.

[SunEagle]

What was the shopping list of stuff I presented? The only thing I bought was two lithium batteries. The only things I talked about buying was a big enough inverter so I could run a microwave, a charger relay so I could charge from my alternator and said I was thinking about 300 watts of solar.

Sorry I didn't know my load requirements in kwh but I know them in real life. I've been RVing for 40 years. I know what I can do with two regular 12 volt batteries and I know what I can do with four 6 volt batteries etc. This **** is so variable and intermittent all your calculations and charts are a bunch of theory bull**** that aren't real world. Its a van with tons of variables and limitations not a house or shed with fixed loads and tons of room solar and batteries. This is something I'm taking out for weekends and maybe a week or two once or twice a year. The only thing I'm a beginner at is the solar part.

Coming here and reading and asking questions was me doing my homework but I guess you guys are too good for that. Your're on a higher level. You guys are like the Bruce Lee of solar and I guess I needed to start out taking lessons at the YMCA first before I bothered you guys.

Solar insolation?! Give me a break as you say since its a mobile application it's not a constant anyway and I think whether I happened to be parked near some trees or something makes more of a difference anyway. It's like I already said you guys expect people to know everything already and do all these calculations and give you all my information in the exact right format. If I do all that what the **** do I need you guys for then?

What is a simple solar setup? I said I was thinking about a 300 watt setup. Does it get any simpler than a panel and a charger controller?

Sorry I asked you guys to do too much homework for me. What a bunch of assholes. Everywhere I've seen this place mentioned was also sure to mention you guys were assholes. They were all correct.

While you may feel you are being talked down to you have to understand that we also try to keep people from spending money before they know what they are getting into. It may seem rough to you but it has helped people learn without opening their wallet and wasting their time.

Anyone that wants to learn about solar technology should at least do some of their own research to gain knowledge before they come to an open forum asking basic questions after they purchased equipment. Doing something in the wrong order ends up being much more expensive then learning first and doing it right.

[Mike90250]

So about .7-.8 KW h per day non negotiable and another .4 KWh per day if I have the power..

A 6v, 200ah golf cart battery contains 1200 watt hours, half of which are usable. 2 of those in series gives you 1.2kwh, meeting your daily stated goal of 1.2kwh in a dream world

300W of solar panels, flat on a roof, might harvest as much as 150W x 3 usable hours generates a solid 450wh, about a quarter of your daily consumption.

That's not much - day 2, day 3 for sure, you will have dead batteries so I'd call 300w of panels, a useless install with the numbers you gave.

[somekevinguy]

While you may feel you are being talked down to you have to understand that we also try to keep people from spending money before they know what they are getting into. It may seem rough to you but it has helped people learn without opening their wallet and wasting their time.

Anyone that wants to learn about solar technology should at least do some of their own research to gain knowledge before they come to an open forum asking basic questions after they purchased equipment. Doing something in the wrong order ends up being much more expensive then learning first and doing it right.

The only thing I bought was the batteries and that was even my first question is if I made a mistake and I should cancel/return them. This whole time nobody has given me **** for advice. Just a bunch of bull****. Also people keep mentioning putting the cart before the horse but this is just a van so I didn't want to take up more room than two batteries so I just got the most energy dense product I could and then I would figure out what optional luxuries I could run after. People keep talking like I didn't do any research. I've been looking into all this **** for about four months and spent over 10 hours reading here alone. How much goddamn time do I need to research before I'm allowed to get some help here. Sorry if you guys are too good for "basic questions" this is the most ****ed up asshole forum I have ever been too. WTF?! Any other forum is happy to help even the day one newbie no matter how basic their questions are. **** off.

[somekevinguy]

A 6v, 200ah golf cart battery contains 1200 watt hours, half of which are usable. 2 of those in series gives you 1.2kwh, meeting your daily stated goal of 1.2kwh in a dream world

300W of solar panels, flat on a roof, might harvest as much as 150W x 3 usable hours generates a solid 450wh, about a quarter of your daily consumption.

That's not much - day 2, day 3 for sure, you will have dead batteries so I'd call 300w of panels, a useless install with the numbers you gave.

Not sure if you noticed but I got lithium batteries so I have 2.4 kwh usable.

Thanks for the advice on 300w of solar. Thats what I was afraid of. I think i'd be better off just relying on my alternator for charging or generator if I'm in a place I can run it without pissing people off.

[somekevinguy]

I might still install the solar just to supplement some and also just for the fun of playing with solar. Maybe even add panels eventually.

[J.P.M.]

The only thing I bought was the batteries and that was even my first question is if I made a mistake and I should cancel/return them. This whole time nobody has given me **** for advice. Just a bunch of bull****. Also people keep mentioning putting the cart before the horse but this is just a van so I didn't want to take up more room than two batteries so I just got the most energy dense product I could and then I would figure out what optional luxuries I could run after. People keep talking like I didn't do any research. I've been looking into all this **** for about four months and spent over 10 hours reading here alone. How much goddamn time do I need to research before I'm allowed to get some help here. Sorry if you guys are too good for "basic questions" this is the most ****ed up asshole forum I have ever been too. WTF?! Any other forum is happy to help even the day one newbie no matter how basic their questions are. **** off.

If it puts any salve on your lacerated, and it seems frustrated ego, know that other readers may have gained some perspective on the value and responsibility of being prepared and somewhat self informed before asking questions - the answers to which they may well be unable to understand without or until some preparation on their part.

You write that you've been at it for 4 months. Some perspective: I've been at it for 40+ years. Others around here much longer. I still don't know much - much less than others and only enough to have the courtesy to not waste others' time asking questions until I've exhausted my own resources to find answers to my own questions. I learned that from my first engineering boss who had all the time in the world to answer a technical question, but threw people out of his office who discourteously wasted his time expecting to be spoon fed answers to questions they could find on their own or have better researched the question before asking, and probably got their own answers as a result while actually gaining some understanding of the matter.

My observation and opinion only is that informed and knowledgeable folks here will generally break their butts with a lot of forbearance with the intention of providing a lot of safe, probably accurate and free advice in a way that can frustrate a lot of folks whose limited and ignorant perspective of the topics they want simple answers to cannot be answered in the way they want.

Take what you want o the above. Scrap the rest.

[somekevinguy]

If it puts any salve on your lacerated, and it seems frustrated ego, know that other readers may have gained some perspective on the value and responsibility of being prepared and somewhat self informed before asking questions - the answers to which they may well be unable to understand without or until some preparation on their part.

You write that you've been at it for 4 months. Some perspective: I've been at it for 40+ years. Others around here much longer. I still don't know much - much less than others and only enough to have the courtesy to not waste others' time asking questions until I've exhausted my own resources to find answers to my own questions. I learned that from my first engineering boss who had all the time in the world to answer a technical question, but threw people out of his office who discourteously wasted his time expecting to be spoon fed answers to questions they could find on their own or have better researched the question before asking, and probably got their own answers as a result while actually gaining some understanding of the matter.

My observation and opinion only is that informed and knowledgeable folks here will generally break their butts with a lot of forbearance with the intention of providing a lot of safe, probably accurate and free advice in a way that can frustrate a lot of folks whose limited and ignorant perspective of the topics they want simple answers to cannot be answered in the way they want.

Take what you want o the above. Scrap the rest.

OK maybe I'll come back and try asking another question in a few more years. I didn't realize this was such an expert forum with such high standards of what questions can be asked. I'm surprised I didn't have to take a test before being approved for an account. You guys really need to get over yourselves.

[SunEagle]

OK maybe I'll come back and try asking another question in a few more years. I didn't realize this was such an expert forum with such high standards of what questions can be asked. I'm surprised I didn't have to take a test before being approved for an account. You guys really need to get over yourselves.

If you realized that the forum has thousands of people visiting weekly, along with having a wide disparity of education you might try to understand that most will not understand the dangers associated with battery systems.

We try to give more educated information here or we could be just as simple minded as the Youtube videos that show you can do just about anything and not get hurt doing it.

The choice of staying or leaving is yours to make. The Admin and Moderators job is to keep people safe while they learn about solar technology.

[somekevinguy]

I have a 2018 Ford Transit van I'm converting into a camper van.

My best estimate is .7-.8 kwh per day load realistically for the basics. I have some other stuff that would be nice to run but not necessary that would be up to .4 kwh for all of it.

I have two lithium batteries which the manufacturer claims I can use 100ah each without "hurting" them so 200ah usable total or 2.4 kwh.

I have a 12 volt Magnum true sine 1000 watt inverter charger with a 50 amp charging section.

I have a 170 ECU controlled alternator.

I have a 1000 and a 2000 Yamaha inverter generator. I would prefer not to use them but I could depending on where I'm camped.

For now I have the following questions.

1. My homework tells me standard practice is 3 days battery reserve so with 2.4 kwh so I shouldn't us more than .8 kwh per day?

2. Sorry newbie question and outside this forums area of expertise but does anybody have any idea of the charge I can expect from my alternator? I've been trying to do my homework on these ECU controlled alternators and read things about them being setup for efficiency and fuel savings and they don't charge auxiliary batteries as good as the old days?

3. What size solar system would make sense for my situation or would a solar system even make sense at all?

4. Again I've been doing my homework on bonding and grounding and all I find are arguments and no consensus. I understand the neutral ground bond of the 120 system and not to have two bonds at the same time. My inverter has the relay that only bonds when it is inverter mode and breaks the bond when it gets shore power. What I think I understand is I want a bonding wire from every metal unit I have like inverter, charge controller, panel, shore power panel ground buss bar and dc negative buss bar.

4.1 Do all these bonding wires need to be tied into one point on the chassis?

4.2 Do I just need a 6 awg from the inverter chassis and the dc negative buss bar? Can I use same guage as power wire from charge controller, panel, etc.?

5. Do I need a main breaker for my shore power coming in?

6. I was planning on just having 3 or 4 ac outlets coming from the inverter. Can I just daisy chain those outlets and rely on the inverter ac output breaker if I use wire matching the breaker size or do I have to put in a panel breakers for those outlets.

This information and these questions are pushing the limits or my intelligence/knowledge of the subject at this point. Hopefully they are good enough for someone to help me.

Also any pictures of typical wiring diagrams would help. Most of the threads I found with them the images are gone.

[somekevinguy]

If you realized that the forum has thousands of people visiting weekly, along with having a wide disparity of education you might try to understand that most will not understand the dangers associated with battery systems.

We try to give more educated information here or we could be just as simple minded as the Youtube videos that show you can do just about anything and not get hurt doing it.

The choice of staying or leaving is yours to make. The Admin and Moderators job is to keep people safe while they learn about solar technology.

Please educate me! I came here to be educated and get information. So far all I've gotten is a bunch of BS comments aside from a few tiny tidbits of help. I'm begging for some help. Please! Please help me not burn down my van and/or kill myself or my family.

[somekevinguy]

I've even been on the NFPA site and RVIA site trying to read through their code books.

[Bala]

"

2. Sorry newbie question and outside this forums area of expertise but does anybody have any idea of the charge I can expect from my alternator? I've been trying to do my homework on these ECU controlled alternators and read things about them being setup for efficiency and fuel savings and they don't charge auxiliary batteries as good as the old days?"

There may be different names for the ECU controlled charging system but "Smart Charge" is common.

It would appear that a dealer can turn smart charge off, it may also be possible to do it with scangauge type software. This is what many people are doing on Ford Rangers when fitting dual battery systems it would likely be the same on your transit van? Your alternator will then function as a basic type alternator.

Another option is to fit a DC to DC type charger, if you search for "Redarc" they have info on these chargers. There is no need to disable the smart charge with these.