I got some lithium batteries. Now what?

[somekevinguy]

I'm into to sailing and a couple months ago I decided to do a camper van build so I've been watching sailing channels for years and more recently van life videos on YouTube and they all said how awesome upgrading to lithium batteries has been and all the usual hype that goes along with them.

So I got my 2018 Ford Transit extended high roof a couple months ago and I'm just in the beginning stages of the build. I was still on the fence about lithium/fla/agm weighing what I thought all the pros and cons are from what I've read and watched and also that it's my daily driver but I'll only be camping in it with the family on weekends and maybe a week or two road trip a year.

So yesterday Battle Born had their batteries $100 off for Cyber Monday and on impulse I just pulled the trigger on two of them. Now today I start looking into more detail about what solar components and inverter etc to get and came across this forum. I've been reading for hours and the things being said here seem to go against what every sailor and van lifer on every YouTube video, blog and forum have been saying. I'm half way to calling Battle Born up and trying to cancel my order if possible. Did I screw up? Should I have just got a couple 6 volt fla batteries?

I'm mounting the batteries inside the van and didn't really want to have more than two batteries and one of the biggest things was I figured I'm getting almost double the usable power in those two batteries with lithium. The weight difference with just two batteries isn't a big deal. Everyone also said how much faster they would charge and not having to vent them and they would last long enough to hand down to my grand children.

I don't even know exactly what my loads will be. I got a dc compressor fridge that is supposed to average like 2.2 amps I think and I'm installing a gasoline fired heater Webasto AirTop 2000 which is a few amps I think when running which I don't think will be a ton. I don't plan on any super cold weather camping. I was also thinking maybe some microwave use would be cool if I got the inverter for it and I had enough battery but I have no problem losing the microwave if I don't have the power for it. I also thought it would be cool to have a little tv for a couple hours before bed and if i had the power maybe bring the ps4 for the kids but again I have no problem not having it. I also have Maxxair Fan roof vent. I can't think of anything else besides the normal stuff, LED lights, some small electronics charging etc.

I think I have a 170 amp alternator I was planning on using with a charge relay for charging and I was thinking of about 300 watts of solar. I think i'll mostly be dry camping so I was debating between and inverter or and inverter/charger. I do have a quiet Yamaha 1000 and 2000 watt generator but I'm thinking those won't be welcome at a lot of the places I want to camp and it would be nice to not have to deal with them if I don't have to.

Any help you guys can give me with all the vague info I gave you? Do I need to cancel/return my Battle Born batteries? Should I bother with the solar at all or just plan on running my engine for a hour if I'm parked more than a day or two? Do I have enough battery to run a microwave for 5-8 minutes a day and a couple hours of PS4? Any help with inverter size and model? Should I spend the extra for an inverter/charger? I spent all this money on lithium and now of course I'm trying to cheap out on the inverter. Any advice on the cheapest one that probably won't catch on fire and/or fry my batteries/electronics?

Any help would be greatly appreciated.

[Mike90250]

How much TLC do you want to invest in the batteries ?
Li batteries, it's all "clean" electronics for battery protection
LA batteries, it's controlling the fumes/vents and watering (AGM has to have provisions for end of life fumes)

Both kinds need proper charge controller setup and of course the battery size needs to be proper for the loads.

[somekevinguy]

Wow this thing doesn't like any of the browsers on my iPhone in desktop or mobile mode.

So yeah that was one of the benefits I considered with Li, not having to worry about venting or adding water.

I had a system in my 5th wheel with a Xantrex 2000 watt inverter/charger and four 6 volt LA batteries but they were in an exterior compartment so I didn't have to worry about fumes but as good as I thought I was about checking the water routinely I have to admit I did let it get below the top of the plates a couple times.

[somekevinguy]

How much TLC do you want to invest in the batteries ?
Li batteries, it's all "clean" electronics for battery protection
LA batteries, it's controlling the fumes/vents and watering (AGM has to have provisions for end of life fumes)

Both kinds need proper charge controller setup and of course the battery size needs to be proper for the loads.

OK so I don't know if everyone is just busy playing with their black friday purchases or if its the way I'm asking but so far I don't seem to be getting much response to the couple of questions of I've asked and I'm trying get my equipment ordered so I can do the install during my vacation coming up. I must've spent about 10+ hours searching and reading on this forum in the last couple days trying to get my answers as best I can.

So now its too late to cancel the two Battle Born batteries I ordered so I guess I'm going with those. I also ordered a Magnum MMS1012 1000 watt inverter/charger with the remote control panel. I guess no off grid microwave for the wife without a generator.

So can anyone help me with solar? Should I even bother or just rely on alternator and/or generator charging? Would it be worth me putting 300 watts on the roof? Any equipment recommendations?

I was planning on getting a shunt based battery monitor but I think I saw they're really just a glorified volt meter?

Any help or advice with any of the details like wiring etc. would be greatly appreciated.

[Sunking]

This kind of thing just makes me sad. Someone spends their money and has no idea if it will even work or not. Hope you learn a lesson.

[somekevinguy]

This kind of thing just makes me sad. Someone spends their money and has no idea if it will even work or not. Hope you learn a lesson.

I'm not an expert like you but I've installed a few inverters, inverter/chargers and battery banks in different RVs and boats and none of them blew up or killed anyone. I'm also a certified auto mechanic, have my aircraft airframe and powerplant certificate, was a mobile electronics installer, a boat rigger and I had two years of school for analog and digital circuitry. So I think I have an idea that my two drop in replacement lithium batteries and my 1000 watt inverter/charger will work pretty good but you at least sound like you really know what you're talking about so I was hoping you could help me make my new project not just work and not blow up or kill anyone but be efficient, cost effective and up to code.

But if you just want to talk **** instead of helping yet another guy that doesn't know as much as you I understand. I'm usually the one that knows more than the next guy and I get tired of helping people out sometimes too. I found this forum through multiple mentions on other forums and all of them said there's some good information here but make sure you have some thick skin if you go there so this place is obviously known for it so I am not surprised. I guess I'll just have to keep digging through here trying to piece together information and do the best I can.

Oh yeah I also rarely learn my lesson.

[Mike90250]

Until you present some load figures ( expressed in KWh per day) I can't begin to guess if 300 w would be overkill or un-noticeable.

My best guess is a fancy House battery charge relay for when the engine is running, to charge off the alternator. Then if you don't move often enough and the batteries go low too often for your tastes, you need another charging source.
Do you spend $$ on PV panels, mounts, charge controllers and still have a dead battery on a cloudy day, or spend $1K for a little honda EU1000 generator and a decent battery charger ?

[somekevinguy]

Until you present some load figures ( expressed in KWh per day) I can't begin to guess if 300 w would be overkill or un-noticeable.

My best guess is a fancy House battery charge relay for when the engine is running, to charge off the alternator. Then if you don't move often enough and the batteries go low too often for your tastes, you need another charging source.
Do you spend $$ on PV panels, mounts, charge controllers and still have a dead battery on a cloudy day, or spend $1K for a little honda EU1000 generator and a decent battery charger ?

I know my first post was pretty wordy so I understand if you just kind of glossed over it. I would probably do the same.

Although not in KWh I gave the average amp draw of my biggest consumer, my fridge and a description of my other consumers. My best estimate for my needs is about .7-.8 KWh per day. That's not counting running a TV, and PS4 for a couple hours which I considered optional, if based on advice here, I had enough power. Counting those about another .4 KWh per day. Finally since everyone here seems so adamant I not go over a 1000 watt inverter on 12 volts I scrapped my 2000 watt inverter plan to run a microwave so I guess I don't have to worry about that unless I can find a low power one that can run from a 1000 watt inverter.

So about .7-.8 KW h per day non negotiable and another .4 KWh per day if I have the power.

I also already said I own both a Yamaha 1000 and 2000 quiet inverter generator so I don't have to spend anything on that option. I did mention it would be nice to not have to bring them along with gas cans in the van and deal with them and I want to go national parks, beaches etc. and I'm not sure how welcome they'll be at some of those places.

I am definitely installing a charge relay. I believe my alternator is 170 amp at speed. Not sure at idle.

My Battle Born batteries are rated at 100Ah "usable" power each. That is how much you will get out of them when new from BMS high to low cutoff which they claim is set conservative enough for long life if that means anything. They have a 10 year warranty assuming they're still around in ten years.

[whazzatt]

Hi SomeKevinGuy

Have you seen the spreadsheet calculator available in the second post of this topic?: https://www.solarpaneltalk.com/forum...battery-design

Open the spreadsheet, plug in the numbers, and you'll get a basic idea of what your two batteries can handle. (DISCLAIMER - I don't know anything about lithium batteries, and I am assuming that other than the rate of charge all other 'differences' between lithium and FLA do not have an impact on planning; you need to research the impact that such differences may have on calculations and planning).

You'll be working backwards because you already have the batteries. You'll need to carefully consider where you'll be using the van (for insolation figures), and how you'll be using it (e.g. will it be standing idle for days).

Let's assume it's an off-grid, stand-alone system. At a worst case scenario of 2.5 hrs insolation (this number will change depending on the location of the van), and with a 200Ah capacity, 480 watt hours is the max you could draw. That is without inverter losses. You will need to factor such losses into your calcs depending on what you end up drawing from the inverter. This example system would require a 30A charge controller, and if it is a MPPT (highly recommended) you would need 288 watts of panels. After 2 to 2-and-a-half-days of no sun, you'd best switch everything off and charge from a different source (I.e. go for a long drive, or use that generator of yours).

I would suggest looking at the system as a fairly safe option if you use it only for 12V lighting (go wild!), the fan you mentioned, and small electronics charging (throw in the stereo and you're probably still fine). Use the fridge during the sun hours only, i.e. turn it off at night (Even here, make sure that the charge controller indicates that your batteries are going into 'float' charge from relatively early on in the day; if they are not, the fridge might be too much of a draw). Dump the idea of the TV, PS4, and microwave oven.

Of course, yours is not a stand alone system, because you will be charging from an alternator, but I can't help with the planning in this regard because it all depends on how far and how often you travel with the van. For planning purposes, such variables make things tricky. Which is why I would opt to plan for a stand alone system; additionally, this approach will help keep the batteries alive and happy when the van is not being used.

I'm sure I'll be told by some member(s) that my advice sucks - that's par for the course that is this forum landscape! Besides, I agree that the advice might suck - always read with a cautious mind and check and recheck facts and figures. At least I'm trying to give you something to work with.

[whazzatt]

...(DISCLAIMER - I don't know anything about lithium batteries, and I am assuming that other than the rate of charge all other 'differences' between lithium and FLA do not have an impact on planning; you need to research the impact that such differences may have on calculations and planning).

I just checked my own MPPT manual and one of its presets is configured for LiFePo4 batteries. Absorbs at 14.2, floats at 13.5, and has no equalisation number. Regardless of the exact figures (because I'm sure I'll be corrected on these), the point is that the charge controller will need to be adjustable (via presets or manual programming).

[somekevinguy]

Hi SomeKevinGuy

Have you seen the spreadsheet calculator available in the second post of this topic?: https://www.solarpaneltalk.com/forum...battery-design

Open the spreadsheet, plug in the numbers, and you'll get a basic idea of what your two batteries can handle. (DISCLAIMER - I don't know anything about lithium batteries, and I am assuming that other than the rate of charge all other 'differences' between lithium and FLA do not have an impact on planning; you need to research the impact that such differences may have on calculations and planning).

You'll be working backwards because you already have the batteries. You'll need to carefully consider where you'll be using the van (for insolation figures), and how you'll be using it (e.g. will it be standing idle for days).

Let's assume it's an off-grid, stand-alone system. At a worst case scenario of 2.5 hrs insolation (this number will change depending on the location of the van), and with a 200Ah capacity, 480 watt hours is the max you could draw. That is without inverter losses. You will need to factor such losses into your calcs depending on what you end up drawing from the inverter. This example system would require a 30A charge controller, and if it is a MPPT (highly recommended) you would need 288 watts of panels. After 2 to 2-and-a-half-days of no sun, you'd best switch everything off and charge from a different source (I.e. go for a long drive, or use that generator of yours).

I would suggest looking at the system as a fairly safe option if you use it only for 12V lighting (go wild!), the fan you mentioned, and small electronics charging (throw in the stereo and you're probably still fine). Use the fridge during the sun hours only, i.e. turn it off at night (Even here, make sure that the charge controller indicates that your batteries are going into 'float' charge from relatively early on in the day; if they are not, the fridge might be too much of a draw). Dump the idea of the TV, PS4, and microwave oven.

Of course, yours is not a stand alone system, because you will be charging from an alternator, but I can't help with the planning in this regard because it all depends on how far and how often you travel with the van. For planning purposes, such variables make things tricky. Which is why I would opt to plan for a stand alone system; additionally, this approach will help keep the batteries alive and happy when the van is not being used.

I'm sure I'll be told by some member(s) that my advice sucks - that's par for the course that is this forum landscape! Besides, I agree that the advice might suck - always read with a cautious mind and check and recheck facts and figures. At least I'm trying to give you something to work with.

No I hadn't seen it. That seems like it's setup for calculating if you had all 110 AC loads that all have to run off an inverter. Most of my loads are DC. It also using only 20% DOD for the batteries. Also doesn't have numbers for lithium batteries. Doesn't really seem to work for my situation unless I'm not understanding it.

Wow I know lithium batteries are over priced but I would've never thought $1700 worth of lithium batteries won't even let me leave my 12 volt fridge on overnight and it sounds like I should just consider my 1000 watt inverter charger a conversation piece not even consider turning it on.

It's funny in my last RV I just had four golf cart batteries and a 2000 watt inverter/charger that I left on all the time and would be running a microwave, two TVs, DVD players, indoor incandescent lights, big outdoor incandescent flood lights, forced air heater, sometimes I would even forget to switch my absorption fridge to propane and it would be running on AC power half the time and I could go for like a four day weekend and I wouldn't even fire up my generator the whole trip. Seems like I'm going backwards. I had about 400ah of FLA batteries and never ran them below 50% DOD according to my shunt based battery monitor and the voltage was always good so I was thinking I would have plenty of power with the same amount of usable power from my lithium batteries but instead I can't even leave my fridge on overnight now and forget about a TV even with the added power of solar panels.

[whazzatt]

That seems like it's setup for calculating if you had all 110 AC loads that all have to run off an inverter.

Nope, it's not set up for AC loads only. There are some example loads (that happen to be AC) but there's this new function in spreadsheets these days where you can delete such info and add your own. The spreadsheet clearly has two boxes for total loads. one AC (via inverter) and one DC. The inverter total needs to take into consideration conversion losses. The spreadsheet does not combine those totals automatically - you need to enter a number for a total load that you have worked out, which you mentioned is 700 or 800 watt hours.

Most of my loads are DC.

PS4, a television, and a microwave oven are not DC.

It also using only 20% DOD for the batteries.

Then figure out how to change a formula to suit your needs.

Also doesn't have numbers for lithium batteries.

You need to do a quick google search to find out what the real differences are between FLA and lithium. I suspect (with the same disclaimer I've used before) that it's all about charging rate settings, and maybe you can go deeper on the discharge without shortening the lifespan of the batteries.

Doesn't really seem to work for my situation unless I'm not understanding it.

Point is that calculations are needed. This is the answer to the question that is the title to the topic you started, i.e. now what? Do the calculations and use your set-up accordingly

...but I would've never thought $1700 worth of lithium batteries won't even let me leave my 12 volt fridge on overnight and it sounds like I should just consider my 1000 watt inverter charger a conversation piece not even consider turning it on.

Whatever you paid for your fancy new batteries is irrelevant in solar applications. It's all about calculations and usage. Maybe you can leave that fridge on overnight. Maybe that 'inverter charger' will never be turned on. MAYBE. It all depends on your calcs, and how you use the system.

It's funny in my last RV I just had four golf cart batteries and a 2000 watt inverter/charger that I left on all the time and would be running a microwave, two TVs, DVD players, indoor incandescent lights, big outdoor incandescent flood lights, forced air heater, sometimes I would even forget to switch my absorption fridge to propane and it would be running on AC power half the time and I could go for like a four day weekend and I wouldn't even fire up my generator the whole trip. Seems like I'm going backwards. I had about 400ah of FLA batteries and never ran them below 50% DOD according to my shunt based battery monitor and the voltage was always good so I was thinking I would have plenty of power with the same amount of usable power from my lithium batteries but instead I can't even leave my fridge on overnight now and forget about a TV even with the added power of solar panels.

Specific information is needed in order to 'explain' this other system to which you refer. A 2000 watt inverter is not suitable for a 12V system, and exceeds even the safety guidelines for a 24V system. That charger is best run off of a 48V system. Your battery monitor is not a safe bet for determining the true state of charge for various reasons that I am not going into here. This is why we do calculations.

How you use your batteries (discharge, recharge, etc.) largely determines how long they'll last. Do what you like man. If you came to this forum, or any solar power forum, looking for affirmation that you spent your money well and that you can now do whatever you like with the set up, then you are going to be sadly disappointed, which would explain your tone of indignation. If you want actual information and advice, then read read read - there are literally tens of thousands of topics here that will allow you to make informed decisions, rather than decisions based on assumptions.

No more from me, I'm out.

[somekevinguy]

Nope, it's not set up for AC loads only. There are some example loads (that happen to be AC) but there's this new function in spreadsheets these days where you can delete such info and add your own. The spreadsheet clearly has two boxes for total loads. one AC (via inverter) and one DC. The inverter total needs to take into consideration conversion losses. The spreadsheet does not combine those totals automatically - you need to enter a number for a total load that you have worked out, which you mentioned is 700 or 800 watt hours.

No you're wrong on all accounts. The function in spreadsheets where you can delete info and add your own has been there at least since I was working with spreadsheets since Lotus 123 in MS-DOS almost 40 years ago.

Also it is setup for AC loads only. There is no second box for DC loads.

PS4, a television, and a microwave oven are not DC.

First we already determined I wasn't going to have those loads anymore and also those still aren't most of my loads.

Then figure out how to change a formula to suit your needs.

Yeah I'll get right on that among all the other **** I'm trying to figure out, I'll come up with and change a bunch of formulas in a spreadsheet that doesn't even fit my situation in the first place.

You need to do a quick google search to find out what the real differences are between FLA and lithium. I suspect (with the same disclaimer I've used before) that it's all about charging rate settings, and maybe you can go deeper on the discharge without shortening the lifespan of the batteries.

Really?! A quick google search? I've been looking into this **** for months. I seriously must have over 100 hours on forums, articles, and youtube.

Also those are the exact calculations the spread sheet is making with regard to battery type. Depth of discharge, and charge rate.

Point is that calculations are needed. This is the answer to the question that is the title to the topic you started, i.e. now what? Do the calculations and use your set-up accordingly

Obviously calculations are needed but I didn't know what they were and that was part of my question but you guys don't seem to want to help anyone unless they already know the answers before they get here.

Whatever you paid for your fancy new batteries is irrelevant in solar applications. It's all about calculations and usage. Maybe you can leave that fridge on overnight. Maybe that 'inverter charger' will never be turned on. MAYBE. It all depends on your calcs, and how you use the system.

What I paid for them wasn't the point even though that's the only part you quoted. I was talking about all the extra usable amp hours I figured I would have over lead acid batteries.

Specific information is needed in order to 'explain' this other system to which you refer. A 2000 watt inverter is not suitable for a 12V system, and exceeds even the safety guidelines for a 24V system. That charger is best run off of a 48V system. Your battery monitor is not a safe bet for determining the true state of charge for various reasons that I am not going into here. This is why we do calculations.

So how do we have ETL and UL listed 2000 watt 12 volt inverters.

I ran that other 12 volt 2000 watt system for over five years and treated it like **** using it almost exclusively in the desert so it was always covered in dirt and I bought the inverter/charger used off ebay in the first place. I know I let the water level get so low in the batteries I couldn't even see it at least twice. Everything was still working great with the original batteries when I sold that RV after 5 years.

How you use your batteries (discharge, recharge, etc.) largely determines how long they'll last. Do what you like man. If you came to this forum, or any solar power forum, looking for affirmation that you spent your money well and that you can now do whatever you like with the set up, then you are going to be sadly disappointed, which would explain your tone of indignation. If you want actual information and advice, then read read read - there are literally tens of thousands of topics here that will allow you to make informed decisions, rather than decisions based on assumptions.

Actually I came here saying I bought a couple lithium batteries on a whim because everywhere else in the universe besides this forum says they're awesome but after doing a lot of reading here I was thinking maybe I made a mistake and I said I was going to cancel or return them if you guys thought I should but still to this day all I've gotten is a bunch of bull****.

I also already scrapped my original idea of getting a 2000 watt inverter and switched to a 1000 watt one based what I read here. Is that your idea of just coming here to get affirmation that I spent my money well?

I have been reading reading reading. Like I already mentioned I must've spent over 10 hours reading here before I even asked my first question.

You guys are all a bunch of ****ing assholes. Everywhere else I read about this place is right.

No more from me, I'm out.

Thank you. I'm thinking the same thing for me.

As a matter of fact I think I'm going to return the 1000 watt inverter this place convinced me was the biggest I could safely use and get another 2000 watt unsafe inverter like everyone else is using and top manufacturers are building without issue.

[Mike90250]

...... I had about 400ah of FLA batteries and never ran them below 50% DOD according to my shunt based battery monitor and the voltage was always good so I was thinking I would have plenty of power with the same amount of usable power from my lithium batteries but instead I can't even leave my fridge on overnight now and forget about a TV even with the added power of solar panels.

I have a buddy contact me a day ago, his inverter quit. Vehemently denied that it could possibly be his 12 year old batteries, or that we've had heavy clouds the last 4 or 5 days. I told him it's not the inverter, and I could bring him some batteries. Nope, it's the inverter for sure, only runs a couple minutes and shuts down. The battery monitor claims 80% full.

Whatever.

> I got a dc compressor fridge that is supposed to average like 2.2 amps I think and I'm installing a gasoline fired heater Webasto AirTop 2000 which is a few amps I think when running

I think you can get weeks from your battery, supposedly, I think when it's not running.

[J.P.M.]

I have a buddy contact me a day ago, his inverter quit. Vehemently denied that it could possibly be his 12 year old batteries, or that we've had heavy clouds the last 4 or 5 days. I told him it's not the inverter, and I could bring him some batteries. Nope, it's the inverter for sure, only runs a couple minutes and shuts down. The battery monitor claims 80% full.

Whatever.

> I got a dc compressor fridge that is supposed to average like 2.2 amps I think and I'm installing a gasoline fired heater Webasto AirTop 2000 which is a few amps I think when running

I think you can get weeks from your battery, supposedly, I think when it's not running.

Sometimes people have their minds made up and don't want to be confused by reality. Folks in such situations often can't be reached. Often the best/only salvage possible is to use as a learning example.