Need help building off grid koi pond circulation system.

**Logan5** · 10-27-2016, 02:57 PM

Your primary goal is to get rid of the extension cord? Why would you go to such trouble and expense? just bury some conduit and call an electrician to hook it up. If you plan to save money or do the green thing, A Solar Battery System is not going to achieve that goal.

**foo1bar** · 10-27-2016, 03:08 PM

Originally posted by Narnian

Hello! My first post on this forum.

I built a small Koi pond in the far corner of my yard about a year ago. To keep the fish and plants healthy it needs to have a pump moving the water through a filtration system 24/7 with a minimum flow of 1200 GPH (gallons per hour). I've been using a 2000 GPH pump with 150' of extension cables. If I remember correctly, when I hooked it up to my watt meter it was pulling 235 watts (110AC), so I think it would be inefficient to use it with a solar power source.

I want to get rid of the extension cables and put in a very small off grid solar system.

My advice:
Don't.

Instead, install an outlet near the pond. (or dedicated circuit)

First, I'd figure out where I can connect to electricity (probably where it's plugged in now is a good bet - but maybe it's easier (ex. not crossing under sidewalk) to go a little farther to somewhere else. (if you have a main panel outside, possibly to there.)
Then I'd mark where I'm going to trench the wires in with white chalk paint and call USA north to mark the utilities.
Then it's hiring an electrician to run the wires and install the new outlet.

Possibly you could use a lower-voltage system (ex. 12V with limited power) and that might make it easier in not having to bury the wire as deep - you'd have to research that.
My bet is this approach will be cheaper. Possibly even in initial cost, but definitely over 10year period - because you will have to replace the batteries

**DanKegel** · 10-27-2016, 03:08 PM

One page on the topic (from "the pond report", whoever that is) says

"Note: You must accept that creating and building and setting up a solar aeration system is a very very VERY complicated affair and while we are offering the parts and instructions on how to build your system we cannot provide ANY help or installation guides."

So beware

But look up that site for some possible ideas.

(I have to wonder if there's a single-panel grid-tied system with integrated microinverter that's plug and play... it'd sure make projects like this easier, and let you avoid the battery question.
The one that was in the news last week appears to still be vaporware, and I don't know whether cities really allow just plugging something like that in. Maybe if it doesn't export energy, they would.)

I agree with foo1bar, just install an outlet near the pond unless you're really set on solar for some reason.

**SunEagle** · 10-27-2016, 03:30 PM

Originally posted by DanKegel

One page on the topic (from "the pond report", whoever that is) says

"Note: You must accept that creating and building and setting up a solar aeration system is a very very VERY complicated affair and while we are offering the parts and instructions on how to build your system we cannot provide ANY help or installation guides."

So beware

But look up that site for some possible ideas.

(I have to wonder if there's a single-panel grid-tied system with integrated microinverter that's plug and play... it'd sure make projects like this easier, and let you avoid the battery question.
The one that was in the news last week appears to still be vaporware, and I don't know whether cities really allow just plugging something like that in. Maybe if it doesn't export energy, they would.)

I agree with foo1bar, just install an outlet near the pond unless you're really set on solar for some reason.

There was a company called Solar Pod that made 4 panels systems using micros that would connect to the main power panel using a dedicated plug and breaker. But they were not cheap when you compared the DIY installed $/watt to a Contractor installed system.

Even if a legal "single panel grid tied system" was created & marketed, for most POCO's you probably still need a grid tie contract and follow their rules to make the connection.

**DanKegel** · 10-27-2016, 03:32 PM

Originally posted by SunEagle

Even if a legal "single panel grid tied system" was created & marketed, for most POCO's you probably still need a grid tie contract and follow their rules to make the connection.

Exactly -- that's what I guess current rules would say.

And yet you don't need a contract to run a small UPS. What if someone added a solar panel to their existing UPS product? There may be room for some innovation there, just as AirBNB moved quicker than the rulemakers for a while.

**SunEagle** · 10-27-2016, 03:42 PM

Originally posted by DanKegel

Exactly -- that's what I guess current rules would say.

And yet you don't need a contract to run a small UPS. What if someone added a solar panel to their existing UPS product? There may be room for some innovation there, just as AirBNB moved quicker than the rulemakers for a while.

But a UPS connected to solar panels is really the same as an off grid system. It works but can get real expensive.

Unfortunately for solar to work continuously it needs something to level out the voltage and frequency. That is either the grid or a battery.

**Narnian** · 10-27-2016, 03:44 PM

I can't tap off of the outlet where the extension cord is to install an outlet near the pond, as there is a concrete patio there and California requires conduit to be buried at a minimum of 18 inches. Even if I could, it would still be a run of 150 feet. To get from my circuit breaker to the pond is a run of almost 200 feet. Conduit, power cables, and electrical hardware is not super expensive, but for this project you're looking at a minimum of $300, and probably more like $450. If that was the end of the story I'd do it. However, you have to throw in the cost of the electrician to hook everything up, the permits, the trencher rental, and the cost of patching up the landscaping where everything was dug up while avoiding the sprinkler system. My estimates come in with the whole job between $900 and $1200. What this estimate doesn't include is running back and forth to the hardware store for tool rentals and forgotten hardware, the hours on my knees cleaning out the trench as I know from experience trenchers don't leave you with a usable hole, hours laying pipe and running cord through it, repairing the landscaping with the knowledge it will take a year to properly heal, and withering under the glare of my wife who is upset about all the landscaping I tore up and the time it was taking me to get through the project. I could eliminate the glares and reduce the project time by hiring the entire job out, but would probably cost $3,000 here in over priced Sacramento. California requires permit upon permit to do anything, and my insurance company requires permits for anything that involves electricity, so in addition to all the labor and expense I've already mentioned, I'd have to wait on paperwork from the city and the county. To me, it makes more sense to install an off grid solar system which by local law doesn't require any permits or digging because everything would be low voltage.

A mini off-grid system will cost less, require zero hard labor, require zero permits, and deter evil eyes from unhappy wives. That's why I would go to such trouble and expense. There are numerous pre packaged solar pond systems out there, but they don't move the volume of water I need, so I have to build one myself.

I can buy 100 Watt panels from Amazon for about $120 each. I can buy a charge controller from the same source for about $30. With the low power 12V pumps I mentioned, I don't need an inverter. The entire system should be under $750 and possibly as low as $500. I'm not sure why everyone wants me to run cable from my house or why we are talking about tying into the grid.

Unless I am really confused, I can power five of the smaller pumps all day on a single deep cell battery - it consumes 5 watts, so five of them would consume 25 watts. A single 100 Watt panels puts out about 70 Watts (I think), which should power the pumps and charge the battery. A single deep cell battery has between 100 and 230 Amps (I think) which should keep five pumps running for hours in the dark. I get lost in the details so I don't know for certain if one battery and one panel is enough. That's what I'm looking for help with.

**bcroe** · 10-27-2016, 03:48 PM

In these parts we'd just get a 250' roll of 12 gauge direct burial cable. Use conduit for protection when it comes
out of the ground or goes through a wall. Use a GFI outlet in an outdoor box. Bruce Roe

**SunEagle** · 10-27-2016, 03:49 PM

Originally posted by Narnian

Response to Logan:

I can't tap off of the outlet where the extension cord is, as there is a concrete patio there and California requires conduit to be buried at a minimum of 18 inches. Even if I could, it would still be a run of 150 feet. To get from my circuit breaker to the pond is a run of almost 200 feet. Conduit, power cables, and electrical hardware is not super expensive, but for this project you're looking at a minimum of $300, and probably more like $450. If that was the end of the story I'd do it. However, you have to throw in the cost of the electrician to hook everything up, the permits, the trencher rental, and the cost of patching up the landscaping where everything was dug up while avoiding the sprinkler system. My estimates come in with the whole job between $900 and $1200. What this estimate doesn't include is running back and forth to the hardware store for tool rentals and forgotten hardware, the hours on my knees cleaning out the trench as I know from experience trenchers don't leave you with a usable hole, hours laying pipe and running cord through it, repairing the landscaping with the knowledge it will take a year to properly heal, and withering under the glare of my wife who is upset about all the landscaping I tore up and the time it was taking me to get through the project. I could eliminate the glares and reduce the project time by hiring the entire job out, but would probably cost $3,000 here in over priced Sacramento. California requires permit upon permit to do anything, and my insurance company requires permits for anything that involves electricity, so in addition to all the labor and expense I've already mentioned, I'd have to wait on paperwork from the city and the county. To me, it makes more sense to install an off grid solar system which by local law doesn't require any permits or digging because everything would be low voltage.

A mini off-grid system will cost less, require zero hard labor, require zero permits, and deter evil eyes from unhappy wives. That's why I would go to such trouble and expense.

I believe you are mistaken that even a mini off grid system will not cost much.

I built one that can safely generate 600watt hours daily (400 watts of panel & a 12v 200Ah battery system). It cost me $2500. If I did it right it might have only cost me $1500. But even then I would have to replace the batteries in a few years. It also took some time and labor to put it all together so it may not be easy for some people to build.

**bcroe** · 10-27-2016, 04:17 PM

As soon as you add batteries, costs multiply and you have a lifetime babysitting job. Sooner or later some bad weather
will come along, killing your batteries and your fish. The standard practice is to have a backup generator to keep things
running and save the batteries. Guess you could run the extension to a charger whenever that is required.

If you could manage to run more gph, say for 8 hours a day under best sun and reduced volume a couple more hours,
but not at night, a system could be built with no batteries. Bruce Roe

**Narnian** · 10-27-2016, 04:31 PM

Originally posted by bcroe

In these parts we'd just get a 250' roll of 12 gauge direct burial cable. Use conduit for protection when it comes
out of the ground or goes through a wall. Use a GFI outlet in an outdoor box. Bruce Roe

In these parts we HAVE to use conduit as I already described, this is not a solution.

**Narnian** · 10-27-2016, 04:57 PM

Originally posted by bcroe

As soon as you add batteries, costs multiply and you have a lifetime babysitting job. Sooner or later some bad weather
will come along, killing your batteries and your fish. The standard practice is to have a backup generator to keep things
running and save the batteries. Guess you could run the extension to a charger whenever that is required.

If you could manage to run more gph, say for 8 hours a day under best sun and reduced volume a couple more hours,
but not at night, a system could be built with no batteries. Bruce Roe

I can run an extension to the charger if we had a string of dark days. That's not a problem. It is OK to run at reduced volume at night, but there has to be some volume of water moving for oxygen transfer. Your suggestion triggered an idea though. I could find a 12V timer or photo sensitive switch to turn off 4 of the 5 pumps at night. On deep cell battery should have no trouble powering a single pump all night long. I should be able to get at least 50 hours of operation for one of these pumps on one fully charged battery.

This is what I'm thinking:

1) 12V power timer that turns off pumps at 9:00pm and turns them back on at 7:00am: $9

https://www.amazon.com/Chicken-Feeders-Programmable-Settings-Function/dp/B00WR0ELCO/ref=sr_1_6?ie=UTF8&qid=1477600959&sr=8-6&keywords=12v+timer+switch

1) 100 Watt solar panel $119

Amazon.com

https://www.amazon.com/WindyNation-Solar-Panel-Battery-Charging/dp/B00FE45FD4/ref=sr_1_6?ie=UTF8&qid=1477601453&sr=8-6&keywords=100+solar+panel

1) Charge controller $19.58

Amazon.com

https://www.amazon.com/Controller-Regulator-Intelligent-Display-12V-24V/dp/B018ICLC3K/ref=pd_sim_86_5?ie=UTF8&pd_rd_i=B018ICLC3K&pd_rd_r=MKGKBHZD7YKTE3E4GTM4&pd_rd_w=bMyi8&pd_rd_wg=mENB0&psc=1&refRID=MKGKBHZD7YKTE3E4GTM4

1) 12V Deep Cell Battery: Sams club $90

5) 240/410 GPH pumps: $49 each = $250

+ Wires and connectors No idea on cost, guessing at another $75?

For a grand total of $488 give or take $50.

**Narnian** · 10-27-2016, 05:31 PM

Originally posted by bcroe

As soon as you add batteries, costs multiply and you have a lifetime babysitting job. Sooner or later some bad weather
will come along, killing your batteries and your fish. The standard practice is to have a backup generator to keep things
running and save the batteries. Guess you could run the extension to a charger whenever that is required.

If you could manage to run more gph, say for 8 hours a day under best sun and reduced volume a couple more hours,
but not at night, a system could be built with no batteries. Bruce Roe

I can run a power cable out there if we have a string of days with bad weather. But I think your second comment gave me a solution. The water needs to move 24/7 but it doesn't have to be full volume 24/7. I can set up a timer on 4 of the 5 low volume pumps so that they turn off in the evening and turn on in the morning. 1 deep cell battery would power a single pump without breaking a sweat. It should be able to handle a single pump for about 50 hours. Any reason this won't work?

20A charge controller (Amazon)	$19.58
12V timer switch (Amazon)	$8.99
240/410 GPH pump 4 pack (Amazon)	$182.37
240 / 410 pump (Amazon)	$49.00
100W Solar panel (Amazon)	$117.99
Solar Panel Connectors pack (Amazon)	$6.99
Wires (Home Depot)	$20.00
2 battery terminal clamps (Autozone)	$16.00
12V Deep Cell Battery (Sams club)	$90.00
Total	$510.92

**foo1bar** · 10-27-2016, 05:38 PM

Originally posted by Narnian

I can't tap off of the outlet where the extension cord is to install an outlet near the pond, as there is a concrete patio there

That could definitely be a problem.

California requires conduit to be buried at a minimum of 18 inches.

Not true.
rigid conduit can be only 6" deep.
NEC table 300.5 is the requirements

Even if I could, it would still be a run of 150 feet. To get from my circuit breaker to the pond is a run of almost 200 feet.

OK - is your circuit breaker in a spot where it wouldn't require going under concrete? If so, there's a good solution.

Conduit, power cables, and electrical hardware is not super expensive, but for this project you're looking at a minimum of $300, and probably more like $450. If that was the end of the story I'd do it. However, you have to throw in the cost of the electrician to hook everything up, the permits, the trencher rental, and the cost of patching up the landscaping where everything was dug up while avoiding the sprinkler system. My estimates come in with the whole job between $900 and $1200.

I think that's high.
I'd guess the permit should be the minimum charge - probably $50 or so.
Trencher is also not too expensive to rent (even here in CA)

. To me, it makes more sense to install an off grid solar system which by local law doesn't require any permits or digging because everything would be low voltage.

actually I'd bet that there isn't a law that exempts it from permits.
But the AHJ probably has a lot more important things to worry about and doesn't want to bother with it.

A mini off-grid system will cost less, require zero hard labor, require zero permits, and deter evil eyes from unhappy wives.

I wouldn't bet on it.
Is She-Who-Must-Be-Obeyed going to be OK with looking out at the solar panels in her back yard?

There are numerous pre packaged solar pond systems out there, but they don't move the volume of water I need, so I have to build one myself.

Since you're already looking at multiple pumps , doing multiple pre-packaged systems might be a better plan.

I can buy 100 Watt panels from Amazon for about $120 each. I can buy a charge controller from the same source for about $30. With the low power 12V pumps I mentioned, I don't need an inverter. The entire system should be under $750 and possibly as low as $500.

To get 1200gph 24/7, I'm doubtful of $750 for an off-grid system.
And it'll cost you money every couple years for new batteries.

I'm not sure why everyone wants me to run cable from my house or why we are talking about tying into the grid.

Because that's likely your best option.

I would look at doing a low-voltage, limited power set of wires from the house to the pond. A "landscape lighting" style system.
Wires for those are only required to be buried 6" deep per code. And that's shallow enough you can probably do that by hand and could maybe even do it by just slitting with the shovel and shove the wire down - minimizing landscape disturbance.

Power consumption 5.0W@12V	Output 240GPH
Power consumption 21.5W@24V	Output 410GPH

Power consumption 17W@12V	660GPh
Power consumption 33W@18V	898GPH

Need help building off grid koi pond circulation system.

Need help building off grid koi pond circulation system.

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