My 10 watt panel with using solar-tite 384 encapsulant instead of sylgard

[john p]

sadly the answer is simple.. we get ripped off badly here on the price of many items. its for this reason now many people direct import things from other countries.
The major retailers here at the moment are complaining to the govt its not fair that people can now import things under a $1000 and pay no import duty ,They claim its reducing their huge over inflated profits. but even if we were forced to pay import duty the prices would still be far lower than from retailers here.
Solar companies here overcharge to get maximum profits from over generous rebates.
Sunking I remember a long time ago I had an arguement of the small cost differences between quality deep cycle cells and lithium ion batteries.. your claim was the difference was vast . I then tried to explain that not true . But you didnt believe.. It is not as the cost of deep cycle cells are about double of what they are in USA. Same for MPPT controlers here they start at over $700 and go to about $1200.
We pay about $5.50 for gasoline(petrol) here.
And our dollar is equal to or just above the value of the US dollar

[Sunking]

John hold on a minute you are talking two separate issues with a common denominator. You will not like what I say nor any of your countrymen but it is the plain fact that it is your socialistic government entitlements and taxes causing the high prices which is what I am driving at.

On one hand you argue retailers charge outrageous profits right. Why? Because of extremely large government subsidies. Where does that money come from? It comes from very high taxes on energy. There is no reason you should be paying as you claim $5/gal for gasoline and 40-cents per Kwh.

On the other hand you argue you can buy them cheaply by buying direct imports, which should be about the same us poor stupid Americans pay, and that retailers want to import tarrifs on imports.

What I am really driving at the governments, both yours and mine cannot solve an energy problem. They can only make it worse and penalize the people they govern. The governments need to remove themselves from the equation and let the market decide where the energy will come from. There is no logical reason Australia should have any kind of problem with electricity. Like the USA you shoot yourself in the foot with silly energy policies. Australia has the worlds largest supply of uranium, it is inexhaustible measuring in the billions of years of supply for itself and the rest of the world. You have all the cheap, clean, and safe enrgy you need but refuse to use it. Instead you sell it to other countries like China, USA, India, Japan, France, and Pakistan.

With that said John I am not criticizing you, because we are just as big as morons here in the USA, and is ironic as we crushed socialism in the 80's, and turned Russia and China into capitalist. Ironic we are now perusing socialism when we know darn good and well it doesn't work. It is Crazy dude.

[john p]

Sunking you and I both know that its just plain stupid for governments to be handing out huge amounts of taxpayers money for subsidies.. They do it for many reasons but one is they like to look like they are "going green" its just unsupportable.As for nuclear power dont get me started on that. I would start building nuclear powerplants tomorrow if in power. But we stupidly sell it to others so they can have cheap power and we use dirty coal. and yes some gas fired ones.here electricity costs about 22c per kwh.
We are very overtaxed on things here. but having said that, its not that thats going to make people stop personal imports as retail is run by 2 very greedy groups in Aus that control just about all major department and grocery outlets.
But sometimes I think we still very lucky for many reasons in Aus. We never had hardly any problems with that last financial woreld disaster. All the banks at that time made mega profits. And compared to the prices of things people have to pay in Philippines for electronics,household appliances and energy we are well off, at least wages are fairly high here.
If you took the average monthly wage of a worker in Aus $3200 and the average wage of a worker in Philippines $250, Then compare buying power
AUS PHILS
Gasoline $5 $4.50
32" LCD TV $450 $800
Electricity $.22 kwh $.24
80 w solar panel $400 $450
can of beer $1.60 $.45
good residence
3 bedroom $300,000 $110,000

[Pylonman]

Ah, can I get more info about Solartite?

[russ]

Good deal on beer in the Philippines at least.

I can remember buying a case of 24 bottles with 5 dollars and having change left over. Of course that was almost 50 years back.

I believe the price here is about like Australia - alcohol was cheap 10 years back but sin taxes are a no brainer for politicians.

Russ

[chris bush]

Energy costs in NH etc

I am 53, and looking towards retirement someday. I am also concerned about future cost of energy

I made a 65 watt panel (aluminum frames, sylgard, 1/8 " tempered glass, 36 3 x 6 cells) recently and am planning to make 3 more for 260 watts total starting - put them on my home made designed post.

My first panel cost was higher, as I was investigating sources but now (if I can continue to find solar tite when I am ready !) my cost is around 143 per panel - this includes shipping for all items. Sunelec does sell panels cheap, but shipping brings it over my cost.

Electricity cost in NH from my current bill is from .15 per watt (off time water heater) to .18 per watt. So, with only 250 watts, and 6 hours a day sun (we get a lot) I can only hope to make 1.5 kilowatts which is .27 per day which is .27 x 30 about 9 dollars a month.

Not much I agree, but I feel if I spend the money I have now (which I won't have later when I retire) to put in panels, I will save on electricity when I don't have the money to spend for it. Kind of like an IRA where you pay taxes on your money later, when you are in a lower tax bracket.

And I intend to eventually get up to 3 kw system. In which case, under current costs, it would be $108 a month.

Building myself allows me to put the money up when I have it, instead of coming up with 3000 - 6000 for a complete system. A little at a time

I guess it is an individual thing, but I am still excited about it. And, with the increased interest, who knows - maybe someone will come up with a more efficient solar material...

Chris Bush

[Sunking]

Open a ROTH IRA and put that same money in say 1000 per year and buy the time you retire it will pay your electric bill. After 7 years and you can take out what you put in as it will have quadrupled still paying your electric bill and you can go on a cruise with what you invested.

FWIW you cannot use your homemade panels on your home as they are not UL listed. No city would approve permits, no inspector would approve inspection, no POCO would connect you, and no insurance company would pay for damages.

[conntaxman]

putting down people

Its something to read were one is telling the other, "oh you can't do it//your going to make Junk//they won't last 20 years// on on on ..I guess some people just like putting others down.
For those making panels, keep up the good work, and I think that most know what they are getting into and how to go about it, and are having Fun .Before any company started to mass produce, they only made one. A test model.
one could also use a liquid film brushed or sprayed on the face to protect the cell from air ,then place it in-between two pieces of glass and have silaca to remove moisture and seal to make a thermopain.
Have fun... don't go by what anyone else tells you.[Some people can't even tie their shoe}

[russ]

There is a bit of a difference between the first panel a company makes and what most individuals will ever be able to make.

1) The company will have the proper equipment

2) The company will employee people with the necessary skills

3) The company will make the effort to get the UL listing which an individual can not.

4) That is thermopane - not thermopain - unless you cut or burn yourself working with it.

5) The insulated glass arrangement will jack up the cost more than ever. I have used that scheme to protect art glass in my home.

Russ

[Mike90250]

Its something to read were one is telling the other, "oh you can't do it//your going to make Junk//they won't last 20 years// on on on ..I guess some people just like putting others down.
For those making panels, keep up the good work, and I think that most know what they are getting into and how to go about it, and are having Fun

We have 2 choices for folks building PV panels. Encourage. Discourage.

As there are few, long life, DIY panels, and most people don't even have the vaguest idea what the conditions are for them to work, and blindly purchase scrap parts from flea bay, sinking hundreds of $$ into something THEY think is going to save them $, but in the long term, will only be an expensive science experiment better done with $50 worth of parts. Most home builders have no concept of bypass or blocking diodes, fuses, or the explosive power of batteries.

SolarPanelFire_1c.jpg
Yey - build me one too. or Bummer, have fun with it while it lasts. But don't spend any more $$ on it.

[conntaxman]

russ

There is a bit of a difference between the first panel a company makes and what most individuals will ever be able to make.

1) The company will have the proper equipment

2) The company will employee people with the necessary skills

3) The company will make the effort to get the UL listing which an individual can not.

4) That is thermopane - not thermopain - unless you cut or burn yourself working with it.

5) The insulated glass arrangement will jack up the cost more than ever. I have used that scheme to protect art glass in my home.

Russ

----------------------------------
.
Russ, my main point I guess was about people trying to degrade someone else or calling them stupid .Some of those type of people never tried or could do what they are talking about.That's all.
I always give people credit for trying.
John
And i admit that Im not always correct and still do ask questions.

[russ]

I have seen some pictures of very nice looking DIY - think it is user Steve C that has photos posted here. There are others as well that have something they can show off with pride.

That type of individual with the skills and the tools is not common. A very high percentage of us will never manage that. The encapsulating part and equipment is the most difficult for everyone.

The electrical side is more touchy - it can have severe implications if not done correctly.

DIY PV makes a great science project for many and a great home project for a few. The books that make it sound easy are very misleading - to the point of being dishonest.

Legal implications are many and some are very negative.

Russ

[russ]

Your 20 year panel? Tell us in 10 years.

Competition has driven down the cost of panels - nothing to do with DIY. The big panel manufacturers don't even realize DIY exists. It would be a small fraction of a percent of the market at most.

Plug and play - good luck in the event of a fire or other problem - not legal. At that point you would have serious problems with insurance and the utility as well - I guess you could build more panels and go off grid when they remove your grid connection.

The glass on panels is plenty thick - the thickness is not selected by accident. With the extra thickness you simply make the unit more heavy than there is reason for.

Russ

[russ]

Right today UL approved panels are available on the net (all plus shipping)

All prices are for individual panels - http://www.sunelec.com/

Canadian Solar 215 watt UL approved 1.89$ per watt
Evergreen 215 watt UL approved 2.23 $ per watt
Suntech 275 watt UL approved 1.84$ per watt.

There are other sites that are competitive with Sunelec.

The previous posts of mine were replying to a new and ex member that was pushing DİY with unrealistic examples - apparently flogging one particular site.

DIY is great if one wants to do it but it is not as easy as people would like you to believe. DIY panels can NOT be used in a grid connect system and not placed on an insured structure.

Plug and play sounds neat but it is total smoke. Not whatsoever legal. No 'plug and play' device is UL approved.

Russ

[richevie]

Just came across this site today and have a few issues with some of the post that are being placed here. I was a power lineman for over 25 yrs with military training in grid systems. I also do diy solar, hydro and wind. I have all three running at my home as I write this. My first diy solar was done over 5 yrs ago and is still connected to my home grid ( yes the power company and our insurance companies know) so I don't know where you get your information from Russ but here in Pa. they come to the house inspect it and then allow you to connect it to the grid. Of course you must have it fused and wired correctly. Now in the past year my electric company is now sending me a check for the electric that I send into the grid. So with all three systems I have free electric and get a check every 3 months from them. Now about the insurance companies all my insurance company wanted from us was a passing grade from the power company and our local building inspector. Now I looked on the net to see if I could find any home fires from diy solar panels and did not find a single one, I did not search for long so may have missed them. Now I know of many home fires from a UL listed toaster, fridge, dryer and many other appliances that everyone has in there homes. So please show all of us your information and give us your vast knowledge. If you can not back it up with proof then stop talking about issues that may only pertain to your neck of the woods not everyone's. I am not trying to start a fight or debate but I just don't like people attacking others when they don't have all the facts but think they do. I am now building a few panels for my neighbor and my cost is $84 for cells, solder, diodes, flux pen. Free tempered glass from an old school that they torn down about 10 miles from my house I have 93 more sheets left. 6.85 for the aluminum frame and about 40 bucks for the sylgard so total i spend for 2 60 watt panels is 170.85 that is everything except for my time which is free for me because I am retired at 45. So I guess I have made the right choices in life to retire that early in life so I don't want to hear put you money in an ira or anything else to pay my electric bill later in life. DIY solar is a great project for people and if they do all the homework before they start it can be as safe as a ul listed item.