Tesla Wants to Build a Battery for Your House

[SunEagle]

Utilities won't have to be forced to use RE if fossil fuel are priced at cost.

I am afraid it will be a long time before RE is cheaper than coal.

[J.P.M.]

Why would RE prices, being technology rather than fuel based, rise?

What trend do you expect in smartphones? Maybe worse price/performance in two years?

The most recent lowest utility scale solar bid is $.06/kwh without rebates. Wind is less expensive in good locations. How could those prices increase in the future?

1.) While the cost of producing R.E. may be controlled by tech. advances to some degree, I'm of the opinion that R.E. prices TO THE CONSUMER are competition based against the alternative: POCO prices. If/As those POCO prices rise, for whatever reason. at, the R.E. faction will sell to the market at whatever price is allowable. The ceiling price will be whatever the R.E. business can convince the consumer is less than the POCO price and in the consumers best financial interest, true or not.
If I can produce a product for $1.00 and make money selling it for $2.00, and my product does the same thing as another product costing $10.00, why would I sell my product for $2.00 ? Some would think that's not smart, particularly when I could sell my product for much less than $10.00 (but probably much more than $2.00) and be more profitable.

2.) Regardless of were utility scale wholesale pricing is, I'm of the opinion that utility scale per kWh prices are lower than they would be if it were not for gov. programs to subsidize alt. energy. BTW, that's the lowest Wholesale price. My POCO claims their cost is about ~ $0.052/kWh avoided cost for what they buy, probably from all sources.

3.) The generation cost may or may not increase in the future, but if the POCO product cost to the consumer increases, it seems natural and a consequence of human nature that the cost of R.E. will follow in the same direction. For it to do otherwise is to leave money on the table. It seems to me that POCOs are smarter than a lot of their users and so would tend not to do that.

Just opinion.

[J.P.M.]

Utilities won't have to be forced to use RE if fossil fuel are priced at cost.

I'm not sure that is a realistic goal. Also, until a way is found to determine such a cost and, a bigger hurdle, get a majority of folks to agree on how to determine such a cost, it's a moot point.

[Sunking]

You make RE technology with energy from RE technology.

You just keep right on dreaming away. You could eliminate all solar right now and there were be no change in generation capacity. Solar is less than 1% after 60 years and contributes nothing of any values and has not saved 1 drop of fuel.

[solar pete]

Bingo, aka Market. The market always decides and never makes a mistake. The market is self correcting. Always has been and always will be. Currently the goberment is trying to make a market, a false market with Tax Subsidies and Net Metering. Truth be told Net Metering is a tax, a hidden tax imposed on rate payers in the form of artificially increased electric rate payers paid by the working class and poor. It is hidden in your electric bill.

Take away the incentives and Net Metering and the solar market collapses.

No it dont, it gets a bit quieter for a while and the dodgy little operators scurry away to find something else to do and the good operators downsize a bit, but the old solar juggernaut keeps on rolling along. Been through it all over here. 2 things, power prices cost per kWh keeps on going up and 2, people just love solar and hate getting large electricity bills

[inetdog]

No it dont, it gets a bit quieter for a while and the dodgy little operators scurry away to find something else to do and the good operators downsize a bit, but the old solar juggernaut keeps on rolling along. Been through it all over here. 2 things, power prices cost per kWh keeps on going up and 2, people just love solar and hate getting large electricity bills

So the market depends on squishy human factors too? That could never happen here, we are too logical.

[J.P.M.]

So the market depends on squishy human factors too? That could never happen here, we are too logical.

In more than a few ways, I'd suggest human foibles account for most market movement in one form or another. That's why there's advertising.

[SunEagle]

In more than a few ways, I'd suggest human foibles account for most market movement in one form or another. That's why there's advertising.

Doesn't everyone stand in line for a couple of days to purchase the newest version cell phone?

[Sunking]

No it dont, it gets a bit quieter for a while and the dodgy little operators scurry away to find something else to do and the good operators downsize a bit, but the old solar juggernaut keeps on rolling along. Been through it all over here. 2 things, power prices cost per kWh keeps on going up and 2, people just love solar and hate getting large electricity bills

Well Pete being down under your Market is upside down ole friend. Here in the USA electric rates have been going down since 2008. In some states 28% lower. National Average is 11.2 cents.

[Samsolar]

Perhaps not the same?

I am typing slowly so you can understand and did not listen the first 50 times when it was announced.

Only difference between them is the firmware to restrict the DOD. Both are a 400 volt 25 AH battery (10 Kwh). Same cabinet, exact same dimensions, exact same weight, exact same battery, just different firmware in the code that restricts DOD.

I find multiple references indicating that the two batteries are NOT the same. Here is just one:

"The PowerWall has two different models using 2 different generic cell chemistries.[3] Tesla uses proprietary technology for packaging and cooling the cells in packs with liquid coolant.[3] Elon Musk has given away the patents for Powerwalls as he did with Tesla cars.[4]

The daily cycle 7 kWh battery uses nickel-manganese-cobalt chemistry[5] and can be cycled 5000 times.[5][6] The other is a 10 kWh battery, using a nickel-cobalt-aluminum cathode[5] like the Tesla Model S,[6] and is for weekly or emergency use and has higher energy density but a lesser cycle life of 1000-1500 cycles.[7][8][9][10]"

http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Powerwall_(Tesla)

[Sunny Solar]

I find multiple references indicating that the two batteries are NOT the same. Here is just one:

"The PowerWall has two different models using 2 different generic cell chemistries.[3] Tesla uses proprietary technology for packaging and cooling the cells in packs with liquid coolant.[3] Elon Musk has given away the patents for Powerwalls as he did with Tesla cars.[4]

The daily cycle 7 kWh battery uses nickel-manganese-cobalt chemistry[5] and can be cycled 5000 times.[5][6] The other is a 10 kWh battery, using a nickel-cobalt-aluminum cathode[5] like the Tesla Model S,[6] and is for weekly or emergency use and has higher energy density but a lesser cycle life of 1000-1500 cycles.[7][8][9][10]"

http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Powerwall_(Tesla)

That cant possibly be right as Sunking is never wrong.



Sunking post #200....Beg your pardon but the 7 and 10 Kwh batteries are the exact same battery.

[Alisobob]

Its really starting to look like a house of cards......

http://www.latimes.com/business/la-fi-hy-musk-subsidies-20150531-story.html#page=1

[Sunking]

Hum wonder who said Musk makes all his money from tax payers. Who said that? He gets $35K of subsidies for every car he sells. If not for that Tesla would have went bankrupt years ago.

[rclark]

Its really starting to look like a house of cards......

http://www.latimes.com/business/la-f...ry.html#page=1

Bear in mind that the fossil fuel industry exists almost purely at the leisure of billions in annual subsidies - ditto for agriculture and plenty of other sectors. Sometimes subsidies are just "crony capitalism" but the truth is, sometimes they help beneficial new industries get off the ground floor, which I think is the case with Tesla's electric cars and solar power innovations.

[SunEagle]

Bear in mind that the fossil fuel industry exists almost purely at the leisure of billions in annual subsidies - ditto for agriculture and plenty of other sectors. Sometimes subsidies are just "crony capitalism" but the truth is, sometimes they help beneficial new industries get off the ground floor, which I think is the case with Tesla's electric cars and solar power innovations.

Try to remember that the fossil fuel industry is world wide and subsidies do not necessarily exist in other countries yet those businesses are very profitable.