Residential Energy Storage Hub

[russ]

Your BS and salesman's talk wears thin - if there is 3rd party testing to show do so - if not that forget it .

You are spreading salesman's blather.

I did NOT block your IP so forget the accusations.

I probably have far more business experience in the US and around the world than you - years or dollar volume. Forget my listed residence.

[Energetic]

Independent 3rd party testing has occurred for the PbC (e.g. Penn State).

Even more importantly, when a __ 2nd party __ whose own skin is on the line does testing for use in their own product, they have incentive to be still more careful than a 3rd party who can choose the conditions of a test and thus steer the results in a chosen direction, defensible or not. And someone else has to live with it.

What you are missing is that the public failure of a major product introduction is a reputational disaster that no engineer or manager wants their career to be associated with.

Even among the Turks or the American project personnel with Turkish experience that I have spoken with over the years, none have given me reason to think otherwise despite Turkey's problems. Should also hold true for countries I have visited or lived in or those of any reader.

Key performance components of an engineered product are chosen based on engineering analysis and test. Relatives-in-the-Purchasing-Dept are allowed to choose commodity items such as the cheapest source of standard sheet metal or a cardboard box supplier – or perhaps solar panels for a clueless non-technical company or government office.

Advanced batteries with complex temperature, charge, hysteresis, cell-interactivity and aging characteristics that need to be defined and understood for leading-edge applications...in a company with an engineering staff...and access to Penn State University faculty engineering professors...not typically done by Relatives-in-the-Purchasing-Dept.

================================================== ================

Now, that we can dispense with – I hope – the Relatives-in-the-Purchasing-Dept idea according to the points above for advanced engineering decisions, lets address your only example. It did not actually fit the Relatives-in-the-Purchasing-Dept idea so unclear why you brought it up. But what your only example did do in its favor is bring up a new element, the claim that politics can be involved. Your allegation of politics is a different but interesting discussion.

[russ]

Listen friend - I am a US citizen - born there and lived there many years. I am quite serious and for you to think such things don't happen means you are rather simple?

Obama and crew made a big show with Solyndra as well - since they (the political bunch) have no idea what they are chattering about it is meaningless. I have seen many things purchased that never should have been. LaHood & Schuster only knew they had been told to be there - nothing more.

Get it tested by an independent 3rd party that is well known as impartial and have results or all your talk is blather.

Your world view makes me think you have never been out of the county you were born in.

Added a few words

[russ]

Any secret-relative or secret-friend theory is amusing once you understand that....

United States Secretary of Transportation Roy LaHood flew in and made a speech along with Congressman Shuster at the unveiling of a product that was critically dependent on its hundreds of AGM batteries working together in difficult high-current conditions.

In your mind, everyone, the technical staff of the railroad, the design engineers of the railroad, the senior executives of the railroad -- all of them -- would happily stake their professional reputations on batteries chosen by some battery manufacturer's “relative working in purchasing”. Are you serious??

Is that how things work in Izmir, Turkey?

Listen friend - I am a US citizen - lived there many years. I am quite serious and for you to think such things don't happen means you are rather simple?

Obama and crew made a big show with Solyndra as well - since they (the political bunch) have no idea what they are chattering about it is meaningless. I have seen many things purchased that never should have been. LaHood only knew he had been told to be there - nothing more.

Get it tested by an independent 3rd party that is well known as impartial and have results or all your talk is blather.

Your world view makes me think you have never been out of the county you were born in.

[Energetic]

- for all we know someone has a relative working in purchasing for the particular railway - or a happy friend possibly.

Any secret-relative or secret-friend theory is amusing once you understand that....

United States Secretary of Transportation Roy LaHood flew in and made a speech along with Congressman Shuster at the unveiling of a product that was critically dependent on its hundreds of AGM batteries working together in difficult high-current conditions.

In your mind, everyone, the technical staff of the railroad, the design engineers of the railroad, the senior executives of the railroad -- all of them -- would happily stake their professional reputations on batteries chosen by some battery manufacturer's “relative working in purchasing”. Are you serious??

Is that how things work in Izmir, Turkey?

[russ]

One of America's large and most forward-looking railroads would beg to differ with you, as would their employees who had to lift and carry your "vaporware" without breaking their backs.

Regarding Sandia, a lawsuit recently disclosed that small innovators like Axion, but not Axion, gave their battery technology to Sandia only to discover it was leaked. According to the plaintiffs, when confronted Sandia told them to go into business with the large well-connected corporations that had received the leaked data.
One wonders if this finally explains why Axion has happily submitted to extensive and difficult test regimens at other laboratories but not at Sandia.

I doubt it - though if you can post a link to a news account about the problem you claim there was at Sandia we would love to read it.

Anythıng not tested by nationally recognized labs is very much suspect - for all we know someone has a relative working in purchasing for the particular railway - or a happy friend possibly.

[Energetic]

Please note an easy source of confusion due to similar ending letters in company names:

Axiom (M) ... which you both referred to is a different company from
Axion (N) ... which patented and manufactures the extensively tested PbC battery with ZERO-lead negative electrode.

[Energetic]

It seems Axiom is just sticking it's fingers in many things that others have developed hoping that something pans out. Their technology changes every few months?

If they won't go to Sandia with their unit then it must either be vaporware or pure hustle.

One of America's large and most forward-looking railroads would beg to differ with you, as would their employees who had to lift and carry your "vaporware" without breaking their backs.

Regarding Sandia, a lawsuit recently disclosed that small innovators like Axion, but not Axion, gave their battery technology to Sandia only to discover it was leaked. According to the plaintiffs, when confronted Sandia told them to go into business with the large well-connected corporations that had received the leaked data.
One wonders if this finally explains why Axion has happily submitted to extensive and difficult test regimens at other laboratories but not at Sandia.

[Energetic]

They refused to have 3rd party test.

The PbC (c) has been tested by multiple 3rd parties.

The technology exist.

Derek that is correct: the technology does exist today.

Three other manufactures other than Axiom offer the same technology.

Nope.

Easy to get confused here among three entirely different lead-acid technologies: a little carbon mixed into standard lead paste vs a lead negative plate half-covered with carbon, vs a ZERO-lead negative electrode.

[russ]

It seems Axiom is just sticking it's fingers in many things that others have developed hoping that something pans out. Their technology changes every few months?

If they won't go to Sandia with their unit then it must either be vaporware or pure hustle.

[Sunking]

Simple problem. All of Axiom claims cannot be verified. They refused to have 3rd party test. The technology exist. Three other manufactures other than Axiom offer the same technology and have had 3rd parth testing like Sandia National Labs.

[Energetic]

I get their routine emails - The web page you linked to is new I believe.

As far as I can see they are simply flogging Rosewater's unit?

russ,

If you are referring to the Residential Energy Storage Hub:

Rosewater was involved very early in conceptualizing and defining it and is primarily responsible for marketing it and managing it from the distributor-customer perspective.

Axion Power engineered the residential-energy-hub, built the prototype and manufactures its PbC batteries including the critical activated-carbon negative electrodes which have a dedicated robotic assembly line.

For the overall product, Axion Power has stated that it may look to outside specialist companies if needed for large quantity assembly – which is obviously not the best and highest use of its advanced battery facilities and scientific/engineering staff.

[russ]

Russ, please see my comment just below. I was just trying to clarify for everyone, in case there is confusion, that Ultrabattery and the PbC are most certainly NOT the same thing.

Thank you,

D

I get their routine emails - The web page you linked to is new I believe.

As far as I can see they are simply flogging Rosewater's unit?

[Dragon]

Any references about hat?

Russ, please see my comment just below. I was just trying to clarify for everyone, in case there is confusion, that Ultrabattery and the PbC are most certainly NOT the same thing.

Thank you,

D

[Dragon]

All-carbon Axion negative electrode is a game-changer

Sunking (Derek),

The principle point of failure in a lead-acid battery is the lead negative electrode. The Ultrabattery has a split negative electrode, half of which is still lead and will still experience sulfation and failure very similar to a plain old lead-acid battery.

The PbC has no lead negative electrode, it is made of activated carbon which does not sulfate.

The carbon negative electrode in the PbC is the reason it has tested to 100,000+ cycles using a test protocol jointly designed with BMW, compared to about 10,000 cycles with the best AGM battery.

Please do not take my word for it though. You can follow this link to the presentation that Dr. Enders Dickinson made for the 13th European Lead Battery Conference just last year.

http://www.axionpower.com/Presentations

"Dr Dickinson emphasized that the total absence of plate sulfation in PbC batteries, which have no-lead pure-carbon anodes, is a critical differentiator in comparisons with traditional or advanced VRLA lead-acid batteries."

D