Residential Energy Storage Hub

[Sunking]

Sinking, Derek, the green line is NOT the PbC. It is the ultrabattery and that is most certainly NOT the same thing as the PbC.

Sure it is. All you have to do is read the text:

The five entities that are actively developing lead-carbon battery technology are:

• MeadWestvaco (MWV), a packaging material and container manufacturing company that is developing activated carbon additives for the lead sulfate pastes used in conventional lead-acid batteries;
  
• Australia’s Commonwealth Scientific and Industrial Research Organisation (CSIRO), which has developed a split-electrode lead-carbon battery that it calls the Ultrabattery;
• Japan’s Furukawa Battery (Frankfurt - FBB.F), which licensed the Ultrabattery technology from CSIRO and has successfully road tested its device for 100,000 miles in a modified Honda hybrid;
• East Penn Manufacturing, a privately held manufacturer of lead-acid batteries that is using carbon additive pastes in experimental batteries and has recently acquired an exclusive U.S. sublicense to manufacture the Ultrabattery from Furukawa; and
• Axion Power International, a small manufacturer of lead-acid batteries that has developed a formidable U.S. patent portfolio in lead-carbon battery technology that will begin commercial production later this year and has partnered with Gaia Power Technologies for a NYSERDA funded utility substation support project that was discussed in the DOE’s 2008 Peer Review.
  

Cycle-life test results for the MeadWestvaco and East Penn batteries with carbon-enhanced pastes are both included in the Sandia graph, as are test results for the split-electrode CSIRO-Furukawa Ultrabattery. While Axion didn’t participate in last year’s tests,

All that SPLIT ELECTRODE means is one electrode is made of Lead, and the other is made of Carbon aka PbC. Ultra Battery is just a marketing gimmick.

[russ]

Sinking, Derek, the green line is NOT the PbC. It is the ultrabattery and that is most certainly NOT the same thing as the PbC.

The PbC does not have a lead-carbon negative electrode like the ultrabattery.

The negative electrode in the PbC is ALL carbon and that makes a HUGE difference.

D

Any references about hat?

[Dragon]

Sinking, Derek, the green line is NOT the PbC. It is the ultrabattery and that is most certainly NOT the same thing as the PbC.

The PbC does not have a lead-carbon negative electrode like the ultrabattery.

The negative electrode in the PbC is ALL carbon and that makes a HUGE difference.

D

[Sunking]

I've never seen a single UPS with a linear runtime.

Neither have I but up till no wall UPS systems used conventional Lead Acid batteries where Peukert Law applies. Peukert Law on carbon lead acid is not an issue, so that makes run times fairly linear. To be honest I guessed at it because there is little information or specs with carbon lead acid batteries to go on with respect to Peukert Law. Carbon Lead Acid batteries have very low internal resistance which is where Peukert effect is derived. The lower the resistance, the lower the effect.

[IntrusDave]

You answered your own question. 10% = 10 hours, 20% = 5 hours.

I've never seen a single UPS with a linear runtime. I've installed several APC Symmetra 16kVa double conversion systems, and not one has been linear. The efficiency of the drop as the load drops. i.e. the Symmetra units efficiency is only 55% at 4% load, where as they peak at 89.8% efficiency at 75% load.

That said - the Rosewater "HUB" marketing sheet leaves out a lot of data needed to know exactly how this would run.

[Sunking]

It is not completely clear from their diagrams whether the PV power is used for recharging the battery or just for supplementing the UPS output while on battery.

It is just a plain ole everyday medium duty 10 Kva Dual Conversion UPS system. Like any UPS you connect the front end to a commercial AC power source. Under normal operating conditions the AC line is effectively supplying all power via the internal rectifiers. There is an optional add on Solar input and a standard Generator input. The batteries showed in the diagram are a 12 Kwh stack which they claim can support a 10 Kw load for one hour. The optional Solar input is extra, and has a max input of 10 Kw.

[Sunking]

I'm more interested in runtime at 10~20% load.

You answered your own question. 10% = 10 hours, 20% = 5 hours.

[Sunking]

Do you think the PbC batteries being used in the RES HUB are the ones or similar to those being tested by Sandia?

No Sir as I stated Axiom refused to have their battery tested by a 3rd party. The two tested were Deka and Furakawa.

[SunEagle]

Russ as far as the Hub Box is concerned I am not impressed. Just way too many false claims. I am also no tcrazy about using multiple AGM batteries in parallel, just plain bad idea.

OK but that is not to say it is all bad. I have been following PbC batteries for about 10 years. Basically a PbC battery is your standard AGM battery. The positive plate is just your everyday lead calcium plate used in every battery. However the negative plate is a hybrid caron-lead plate, that reportable offers low internal resistance and much improved sulphation characteristics. This could be a game changer in th elead acid battery and may very well give lithium a run for the money. Here is a neat graph from Sandia National Labs comparing cycle counts.



Note here the Green Line is the PbC battery. What is not stated is the PbC batteries used were made by East Penn, Furukawa. Axiom refused to participate, and that raises a RED FLAG. So axiom does not have the market cornered. Even though Axion did not participate, the PbC battery is exciting. Withthat said I need to see a lot more details from 3rd party testing of actual production models.

Do you think the PbC batteries being used in the RES HUB are the ones or similar to those being tested by Sandia?

[inetdog]

I'm more interested in runtime at 10~20% load.

I've been looking into something like this for a while now. I'm in Southern California - just about 10 miles from the San Andreas Fault. If it finally goes, I fully expect to be without power for at least a week. I have a 5.45kW PV system, and I have no problem reducing my power usage to about 1kW and still be comfortable. I can get much lower with just heating, some lighting and refrigerator. So - Can a unit like this keep me running from 6pm to 9am? Then recharge to 100% from the 4.5kW of surplus solar?

It is not completely clear from their diagrams whether the PV power is used for recharging the battery or just for supplementing the UPS output while on battery. That would make a very big difference.

[IntrusDave]

I'm more interested in runtime at 10~20% load.

I've been looking into something like this for a while now. I'm in Southern California - just about 10 miles from the San Andreas Fault. If it finally goes, I fully expect to be without power for at least a week. I have a 5.45kW PV system, and I have no problem reducing my power usage to about 1kW and still be comfortable. I can get much lower with just heating, some lighting and refrigerator. So - Can a unit like this keep me running from 6pm to 9am? Then recharge to 100% from the 4.5kW of surplus solar?

[Sunking]

The jump in capacity after 8000 cycles is intriguing. Not expected unless they did some sort of productive maintenance.

It is not a jump in capacity as it appears. That is why I noted it is compiled data from two different manufacture batteries. Had me going too when I first saw it.

[inetdog]

From Axion

Hello.

Additional information on the Residential Energy Storage Hub can be found at the following website.

http://www.rosewaterenergy.com/residential.aspx

Apparently they are floging the Rosewater unit - Fatawan had already supplied the link

I took a look at the website. They rate their dual-conversion UPS as capable of 1.2 hours backup runtime at 10KVA based on the use of 12Kwh worth of their batteries. So either their battery modules are rated by them based on something like 50% DOD, or they are taking the batteries all the way down to 0% SOC. I guess they must have a lot of confidence in their batteries!

[bonaire]

The jump in capacity after 8000 cycles is intriguing. Not expected unless they did some sort of productive maintenance.

[Sunking]

Russ as far as the Hub Box is concerned I am not impressed. Just way too many false claims. I am also no tcrazy about using multiple AGM batteries in parallel, just plain bad idea.

OK but that is not to say it is all bad. I have been following PbC batteries for about 10 years. Basically a PbC battery is your standard AGM battery. The positive plate is just your everyday lead calcium plate used in every battery. However the negative plate is a hybrid caron-lead plate, that reportable offers low internal resistance and much improved sulphation characteristics. This could be a game changer in th elead acid battery and may very well give lithium a run for the money. Here is a neat graph from Sandia National Labs comparing cycle counts.



Note here the Green Line is the PbC battery. What is not stated is the PbC batteries used were made by East Penn, Furukawa. Axiom refused to participate, and that raises a RED FLAG. So axiom does not have the market cornered. Even though Axion did not participate, the PbC battery is exciting. Withthat said I need to see a lot more details from 3rd party testing of actual production models.