Chevy Volt

[russ]

An interesting article about the cost of a Volt.

http://news.yahoo.com/insight-gms-vo...--finance.html

[billvon]

I never thought the Volt was a good tradeoff between an EV and a gas powered car. It has all the weight of a fully electric car (batteries etc) plus the weight of a standard drivetrain, so it's sort of the worst of both worlds.

Most car trips in the US are under 12 miles. A PHEV that could cover 12 miles would cover more than half of all car trips on pure EV while drastically decreasing the weight/cost/size of the battery.

[Sunking]

Most car trips in the US are under 12 miles. A PHEV that could cover 12 miles would cover more than half of all car trips on pure EV while drastically decreasing the weight/cost/size of the battery.

I hate Chevy Volt as it is neither a ICE or EV. That is why sales suk.

But you bring up something that is a big weakness most do not want to talk about. If you have an EV, you must also have a ICE car in addition. Otherwise you have to take a bus to Grandma's house or vacation.

[billvon]

I hate Chevy Volt as it is neither a ICE or EV. That is why sales suk.

It's both, actually. In this case it tries to be too much of both (IMO.)

But you bring up something that is a big weakness most do not want to talk about. If you have an EV, you must also have a ICE car in addition. Otherwise you have to take a bus to Grandma's house or vacation.

Hmm. And yet there are millions of Americans who live their lives without owning a car.

[bonaire]

The Volt is not as bad as you and that story make it out to be. It has the efficiency of an EV for local driving and an engine to take you farther. What is so wrong about that? I have one and it's fantastic. Most pundits who rail against it don't have one and probably wouldn't take one if given the car. It is quite the political and media hot potato, isn't it?

[Sunking]

It's both, actually. In this case it tries to be too much of both (IMO.)

I agree which is the problem

Hmm. And yet there are millions of Americans who live their lives without owning a car.

So what is your point? If you cannot afford an old car, you darn sure cannot afford a hybrid or EV.

What does a poor person in the USA look like? One who owns a car, color TV, cell phone, in a air conditioned government provided housing, and over weight on food stamps. Being poor in the USA is a great living condition that most of the world will kill for and tires constantly to do.

[russ]

The Volt is not as bad as you and that story make it out to be. It has the efficiency of an EV for local driving and an engine to take you farther. What is so wrong about that? I have one and it's fantastic. Most pundits who rail against it don't have one and probably wouldn't take one if given the car. It is quite the political and media hot potato, isn't it?

To me it is the best scenario - operating an ICE at optimum to gain distance -

Just need battery tech to support the EVs and that ain't close.

Unfortunately it (and all EVs) are before their time - same thing with Chevy's earlier EV that green sites whine about ''big'' business killing - no way it just died a natural death.

[billvon]

So what is your point? If you cannot afford an old car, you darn sure cannot afford a hybrid or EV.

My point was that there are plenty of people in the US who don't need to own a vehicle that will take them hundreds of miles to grandma. If they need to travel they rent one, or buy a plane ticket, or take a taxi, or take a train etc etc.

Twenty years from now people won't even be aware that the cheap cars they are buying are hybrids. They'll just want a cheap car.

[inetdog]

I agree which is the problem

So what is your point? If you cannot afford an old car, you darn sure cannot afford a hybrid or EV.

What does a poor person in the USA look like? One who owns a car, color TV, cell phone, in a air conditioned government provided housing, and over weight on food stamps. Being poor in the USA is a great living.

There are experimental programs going on which provide cars "on demand", for urban dwellers primarily who occasionally need to use a dedicated vehicle, or for those who enter the urban area via other transportation and need a car for local endpoints.

Either a pure EV or something like the Volt could be useful for this kind of situation. The Volt would have the advantage that the one-time user could not accidentally get the car into a situation where it could not reach a charger.

Not making any statement about the viability of this kind of program in general, just that it might be a use case for a vehicle like the Volt.

[russ]

What does a poor person in the USA look like? One who owns a car, color TV, cell phone, in a air conditioned government provided housing, and over weight on food stamps. Being poor in the USA is a great living condition that most of the world will kill for and tires constantly to do.

Too close to the truth! The present OWS bunch are the logical extension - hands out for freebies.

[Sunking]

My point was that there are plenty of people in the US who don't need to own a vehicle that will take them hundreds of miles to grandma.

Green Dreams of idealism. In order for a EV to reach mass market acceptance it must have a 300 mile minimum range between recharges, all the bells and whistles, be fully recharged in 15 minutes or less, and cost the same or less than ICE. Until that day happens you are dreaming. Until then it is a LUXURY to those who can afford it.

There are two major hurdles to accomplish that.

1. Battery Tech
2. Electrical generation capacity and Distribution.

[russ]

Green Dreams of idealism. In order for a EV to reach mass market acceptance it must have a 300 mile minimum range between recharges, all the bells and whistles, be fully recharged in 15 minutes or less, and cost the same or less than ICE. Until that day happens you are dreaming. Until then it is a LUXURY to those who can afford it.

There are two major hurdles to accomplish that.

Battery Tech
Electrical generation and Distribution.

Agreed with both of those points being major problems - very major!

[billvon]

Green Dreams of idealism.

You should look into your knee problem; it must be annoying!

In order for a EV to reach mass market acceptance it must have a 300 mile minimum range between recharges, all the bells and whistles, be fully recharged in 15 minutes or less, and cost the same or less than ICE. Until that day happens you are dreaming.

Range - we're there. The model S has a 300 mile range.
All the bells and whistles - there.
Fully recharged in 15 minutes - about halfway there. We can do an 80% charge in 30 minutes now.
Cost - that's the big issue. Right now the 100K mile price of a 300 mile range EV is about $90,000, and most of that is battery. A midsize SUV has a 100K mile cost of around $45,000, and about half of that is gas cost. Which means that EV's are a lot more expensive over their lifetimes than IC cars right now.

If gas hits $6 a gallon (which it will do in 10 years per current trends) then that SUV price rises to $55,000. And if li-ion trends continue as they have since 1995, then in 10 years the purchase price of that EV will drop to around $50,000. At that point the only additional cost is charging power, which assuming it doubles is $5000. Now it's a toss-up.

Until then it is a LUXURY to those who can afford it.

True. Of course that was true of IC cars until around 1940 or so. (And is true today of most SUV's - but they still sell quite well.)

[Sunking]

Fully recharged in 15 minutes - about halfway there. We can do an 80% charge in 30 minutes now.

Only at your home location in theory with a large enough service and dedicated circuit and custom designed charger for your car. It would be a 3-wire 240 or 480 volt recept much like your Dryer receptacle but much larger and very dangerous.

Cost - that's the big issue. Right now the 100K mile price of a 300 mile range EV is about $90,000

I agree and that is where you are dreaming. I can buy an used good condition ICE vehicle for $3000 and take me across the country, stop and refill the gas tank anywhere. That $90K 300 mile S-Car takes very special facilities not many have. You need a dedicate 50 amp 3-wire circuit installed at your home to charge it in a few hours. To do it in 30 minutes or less is more than any home service can do. It wil take an electrical sub station at 13.2 Kv or more to do that.

[billvon]

Only at your home location in theory with a large enough service and dedicated circuit and custom designed charger for your car. It would be a 3-wire 240 or 480 volt recept much like your Dryer receptacle but much larger and very dangerous.

Home location - I disagree there. Just no need for them. The need is where people want to charge quickly, near destinations and along freeways. Oregon is doing this along I-5 for example.

I agree and that is where you are dreaming. I can buy an used good condition ICE vehicle for $3000 and take me across the country, stop and refill the gas tank anywhere.

Yep. That's because most cars are gasoline powered and services have grown up around them. Now try it with a diesel. Will be slightly harder but easily doable, since diesel is almost as readily available as gasoline. Now try to do it with a natural gas car; you'll have a lot of trouble. Does that mean that natural gas cars suck? Or is it just that there aren't a lot of services available for them yet since there aren't a lot of them out there?

Electric vehicles will face the same issues - and will be amenable to the same solutions. A Level 3 charger costs less than a gas pump, and the installation of that level 3 charger costs less than burying the gas tank that services the pump.

That $90K 300 mile S-Car takes very special facilities not many have. You need a dedicate 50 amp 3-wire circuit installed at your home to charge it in a few hours. To do it in 30 minutes or less is more than any home service can do. It wil take an electrical sub station at 13.2 Kv or more to do that.

They just installed one down here in a parking lot in Kearney Mesa; no substation to be seen.