Power companies going the way of the landline by 2030?

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  • pleppik
    Solar Fanatic
    • Feb 2014
    • 508

    Power companies going the way of the landline by 2030?

    The Rocky Mountain Institute released a report today projecting the economics of solar power over the next 35 years. You can download it here (you'll have to give them an email address, but the report is free).

    The headline-grabbing conclusion is that if historical trends continue (a big if, of course), with 10-15 years it will be cheaper in a lot of places to be completely off-grid with solar panels and batteries than grid tied. They also suggest that within 15 years up to half of residential customers in some places could go off grid.

    I think this conclusion is extreme: for starters, fewer than half of homes in many places are even suitable for solar panels (due to shading, roof orientation, etc.). But the core conclusion makes sense, in that cheaper PV and battery prices in the not too distant future could lead to a situation where grid operators have to compete at a disadvantage to the off grid option.

    IMHO, this would be a very bad outcome. Grid-tied solar is inherently more efficient than using batteries, since the grid provides a way to deliver excess generation to people who can use it immediately, rather than taking the losses (both financial and energetic) of storing the extra in a battery. So even in an age of cheap and ubiquitous solar power, we want to encourage people to stay connected to the grid rather than cutting the cord.

    So we need to have policies and pricing structures which encourage customers to stay on-grid. But that doesn't seem to be the approach utilities have been pursuing. Instead, they want to impose punitive connection fees (as in Arizona) or demand-based pricing, ideas which may discourage grid-connected customers from installing solar; but also encourage solar-powered homes to go off-grid.

    Power companies are effectively betting that customers would rather be grid-tied than solar-powered, and they are trying to make it harder to be both. At some point, if prices continue to drop, they will lose that bet big-time.

    All my opinion of course. But I wish more utilities would think in terms of engineering their future role in a world of cheap residential solar, rather than trying to throw obstacles in the face of technological change.
    16x TenK 410W modules + 14x TenK 500W inverters
  • Sunking
    Solar Fanatic
    • Feb 2010
    • 23301

    #2
    Originally posted by pleppik
    The Rocky Mountain Institute
    That is all I needed to hear. What is funny is these Green Whackos are promoting a system with an EROI of less than 1. That is a huge waste of resources and very dirty air. They cannot see the forest because they are looking at the trees they are hugging.
    MSEE, PE

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    • Ian S
      Solar Fanatic
      • Sep 2011
      • 1879

      #3
      Originally posted by Sunking
      That is all I needed to hear. What is funny is these Green Whackos are promoting a system with an EROI of less than 1. That is a huge waste of resources and very dirty air. They cannot see the forest because they are looking at the trees they are hugging.
      Are you claiming solar PV has an EROI of less than 1? If so, I'd love to see the source for that as what I've been able to find from for example, Brookhaven National Labs is better than 6.

      Comment

      • Sunking
        Solar Fanatic
        • Feb 2010
        • 23301

        #4
        Originally posted by Ian S
        Are you claiming solar PV has an EROI of less than 1? If so, I'd love to see the source for that as what I've been able to find from for example, Brookhaven National Labs is better than 6.
        Learn how to read through those Green Glasses. OFF GRID BATTERY SYSTEMS have an EROI of less then 1. What part do you not understand?

        The headline-grabbing conclusion is that if historical trends continue (a big if, of course), with 10-15 years it will be cheaper in a lot of places to be completely off-grid with solar panels and batteries than grid tied.


        You link is talking about commercial Solar PV active GRID TIED, and an EROI of 6 is pathetic. Wind is around 8 the minimum to be profitable and considered as a resource, Coal at 40 to 80, NG at 100 to 150, and nuclear is off the charts.
        MSEE, PE

        Comment

        • J.P.M.
          Solar Fanatic
          • Aug 2013
          • 14926

          #5
          Originally posted by Sunking
          That is all I needed to hear. What is funny is these Green Whackos are promoting a system with an EROI of less than 1. That is a huge waste of resources and very dirty air. They cannot see the forest because they are looking at the trees they are hugging.
          IMO only, Amory Lovins was one of the first and to me one of the most transparent of the shysters that helped give solar a bad name in the '70's. It seemed to me that he had sort of a cult thing going on, always looking for donations for his schemes build a place up in the Rockies, called the Rockie Mountain Institute, that was about as ecologically inappropriate as possible (including a greenhouse for growing, among other things, if I recall correctly, bananas). That place looked suspiciously like a lovely residence to me, mostly built, I suspect with volunteer time and money. He's kept a lower profile for some time, but resurfaces every so often with some cock and bull idea to plug for more donations and rope in (harvest might be a better word) the latest crop of the renewable energy portion of the "you could just" crowd.

          Comment

          • pleppik
            Solar Fanatic
            • Feb 2014
            • 508

            #6
            Originally posted by Sunking
            Learn how to read through those Green Glasses. OFF GRID BATTERY SYSTEMS have an EROI of less then 1. What part do you not understand?
            The numbers I've seen for EROI of modern (made within the past five years) PV systems range from 6-8 at the low end up to 12-16 at the high end.

            The embedded energy of battery storage is harder to come by, but this article comes up with values for "ESOI" (lifetime energy stored over energy input) of 5 for lead acid up to 32 for lithium ion.

            Even using the worst-case of those ranges, combining an EROI of 6 for the PV with an ESOI of 5 for the batteries (i.e. the lowest EROI for PV and the worst battery chemistry) gives an overall EROI of at least 2.7 (assuming 100% of the PV power is stored, and none used immediately). Using the best-case numbers of EROI 16 and ESOI 32 gives an overall EROI of a little over 10.

            So while EROI of 2.7 is nothing to write home about, it's still well above 1, and it seems that it may be possible today (and probably within 15 years) to build an off-grid system with EROI over 10.

            But you may have better data than I do, so I'm curious to know where you're getting your figures from.
            16x TenK 410W modules + 14x TenK 500W inverters

            Comment

            • pleppik
              Solar Fanatic
              • Feb 2014
              • 508

              #7
              Originally posted by Sunking
              That is all I needed to hear. What is funny is these Green Whackos are promoting a system with an EROI of less than 1. That is a huge waste of resources and very dirty air. They cannot see the forest because they are looking at the trees they are hugging.
              Also, you may want to actually read the article before you make assumptions about what they're promoting. The article concludes that customers going off-grid is a generally bad outcome, and that power companies need to be putting in place policies to encourage customers to stay on the grid even when PV and batteries are cheap in the future. All of which seems sensible to me.
              16x TenK 410W modules + 14x TenK 500W inverters

              Comment

              • russ
                Solar Fanatic
                • Jul 2009
                • 10360

                #8
                Originally posted by pleppik
                Also, you may want to actually read the article before you make assumptions about what they're promoting. The article concludes that customers going off-grid is a generally bad outcome, and that power companies need to be putting in place policies to encourage customers to stay on the grid even when PV and batteries are cheap in the future. All of which seems sensible to me.
                Silly BS - local generation will never amount to much. Too many problems.
                [SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]

                Comment

                • DanKegel
                  Banned
                  • Sep 2014
                  • 2093

                  #9
                  Originally posted by russ
                  Silly BS - local generation will never amount to much. Too many problems.
                  Yeah. It's simple physics. There's no way you could use it to power a house; it's made of photons, see, and the house runs on electrons.

                  The proper use for solar energy is burning bugs with a magnifying glass.

                  Comment

                  • Dapperjman
                    Junior Member
                    • Apr 2015
                    • 3

                    #10
                    Originally posted by pleppik
                    So we need to have policies and pricing structures which encourage customers to stay on-grid. But that doesn't seem to be the approach utilities have been pursuing. Instead, they want to impose punitive connection fees (as in Arizona) or demand-based pricing, ideas which may discourage grid-connected customers from installing solar
                    Hey Pleppik,

                    What would be your solution for utilities to satisfy solar customers while also providing fair prices to everyone else?

                    Comment

                    • DanKegel
                      Banned
                      • Sep 2014
                      • 2093

                      #11
                      Originally posted by Dapperjman
                      Hey Pleppik,

                      What would be your solution for utilities to satisfy solar customers while also providing fair prices to everyone else?
                      Depends on what you mean by fair, and how important nurturing the nascent solar industry is.
                      The power companies are all slowly switching to smart meters and introducing demand charges. Is that fair? Some are using doing that for solar users first. Is that fair? Many offer subsidies of some sort for renewable energy. Is that fair?

                      Me, I think that anything that gets us off fossil fuel by 2050 is fair, so I'd like to see tarrifs that set the proper market incentives, plus limited time decreasing subsidies, to get us moving in that direction fast enough. Nothing can be done by fiat or wishful thinking, but business as usual is not really an option if we want to avert catastrophe.

                      Comment

                      • Power Planet
                        Junior Member
                        • Apr 2015
                        • 2

                        #12
                        Africa's Role in Solar Energy

                        I agree with the post.

                        Did you know that Africa is currently under going a total make over. Africa is switching to alternative energy.

                        Read more here
                        Power Planet - Renewable Solar Energy

                        Comment

                        • Dapperjman
                          Junior Member
                          • Apr 2015
                          • 3

                          #13
                          Originally posted by DanKegel
                          Depends on what you mean by fair, and how important nurturing the nascent solar industry is.
                          The power companies are all slowly switching to smart meters and introducing demand charges. Is that fair? Some are using doing that for solar users first. Is that fair? Many offer subsidies of some sort for renewable energy. Is that fair?

                          Me, I think that anything that gets us off fossil fuel by 2050 is fair, so I'd like to see tarrifs that set the proper market incentives, plus limited time decreasing subsidies, to get us moving in that direction fast enough. Nothing can be done by fiat or wishful thinking, but business as usual is not really an option if we want to avert catastrophe.
                          I guess I meant fair only in a financial sense. I'd like to see us move away from fossil fuels as well, and I hope the rate structures and policies don't kill solar. Do you not think demand charges are fair for anyone, especially solar users?

                          Comment

                          • J.P.M.
                            Solar Fanatic
                            • Aug 2013
                            • 14926

                            #14
                            Fair has nothing to do with it. Who said business/life/anything has to be fair ? That's not the way the game is run. Believe otherwise at your own risk.

                            Comment

                            • DanKegel
                              Banned
                              • Sep 2014
                              • 2093

                              #15
                              I like smart meters. I hope that they get rolled out broadly, and used to help set up the right economic incentives to get us off fossil fuels.

                              Demand charges can be fair. They're so new for residential that I haven't wrapped my head around them yet, but I imagine the right thing to do is to set out a ten year schedule of slowly increasing demand charges, starting at 0% of total power company revenue and ramping up to whatever level provides sufficient incentive for local demand management and possibly local storage.

                              I don't think it's particularly fair to single out solar customers as the guinea pigs for demand charges, but if they're small and don't inhibit the growth of solar, it's probably ok.

                              Comment

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