Oklahoma Charges through the Nose: Solar Success Attracts Fees

[Sunking]

If your answer is that long term, we need to build more gas powered plants, it seems that we'll have a problem in a couple hundred years. Frankly, your answer is a bit of a rant and does not really explain your position. Could you articulate your position?

The issue is BASE LOAD and solar contributes nothing to Base Load. On average around the country Base Load is at low 90% of capacity. In many states like California cannot even meet Base Loads and have to import 30% of their electricity from neighboring states. Twenty years ago when CA dicided to go green they only imported 10% of their energy. Today just over 30%. Solar has done nothing except raise CA energy prices and cut capacity. They are going backwards.

March 2015 DOE raised Red Flags with Congress and POTUS Obama stating Electric Energy needs is at a crisis point in desire need of conventional power plant construction. They stated RE i snot working plain and Simple. US has roughly 50 years of proven reserves of cheap natural gas,, 250 years of coal. and 10 million years of dirt cheap nuclear energy. There is only one good answer. In the short term build out NG/Coal plants, and long term nuclear.

If you have ever heard of the Smart Grid you might like to know what it is and means. It works a bit like cellular telephone by putting small passive nuclear plants in a grid like fashion in a city or region that can fit in a typical house basement. If one plant has to shut down for maintenance of low demand, the surrounding plants pick up the slack. It also entails looking right into your home energy uses to allow big brother to turn on/off high wattage devices like you air conditioning. If you have a new Smart Meter at your home now, that capability is already there. Smart Meters eliminate a lot of things like Meter Readers or calling to report power outages and/or problems. My home in TX before I left had a Smart Meter and I got an email every day on usage and patterns.

That is what is coming. That is what every utility, engineer, technician and politician knows. All you have now is just politics kicking the can down the road and no politician willing to tell the truth in fear of loosing a election. Politicians would rather see Black Outs and sky high rates before telling the truth risking loosing office. Remember Obama pledged in his 2008 campaign to punish Americans with sky rocketing electric energy bills. He kept his promise.

[+3 Golfer]

At the same time, solar power adds power at the time of most consumption, lowering the need for peak time power plants, which are also the most expensive to run. This debate is going to go on for a while, and will only intensify as the number of solar arrays goes up.

Yes, very good point.

You want to rethink that. It generally adds significantly more power on shoulder hours and Saturdays and Sundays.

http://www.ercot.com/content/cdr/html/loadForecastVsActualCurrentDay.html

http://www.caiso.com/outlook/SystemStatus.html#SupplyandDemand

[JCP]

The issue is BASE LOAD and solar contributes nothing to Base Load. On average around the country Base Load is at low 90% of capacity. In many states like California cannot even meet Base Loads and have to import 30% of their electricity from neighboring states. Twenty years ago when CA dicided to go green they only imported 10% of their energy. Today just over 30%. Solar has done nothing except raise CA energy prices and cut capacity. They are going backwards.

March 2015 DOE raised Red Flags with Congress and POTUS Obama stating Electric Energy needs is at a crisis point in desire need of conventional power plant construction. They stated RE i snot working plain and Simple. US has roughly 50 years of proven reserves of cheap natural gas,, 250 years of coal. and 10 million years of dirt cheap nuclear energy. There is only one good answer. In the short term build out NG/Coal plants, and long term nuclear.

If you have ever heard of the Smart Grid you might like to know what it is and means. It works a bit like cellular telephone by putting small passive nuclear plants in a grid like fashion in a city or region that can fit in a typical house basement. If one plant has to shut down for maintenance of low demand, the surrounding plants pick up the slack. It also entails looking right into your home energy uses to allow big brother to turn on/off high wattage devices like you air conditioning. If you have a new Smart Meter at your home now, that capability is already there. Smart Meters eliminate a lot of things like Meter Readers or calling to report power outages and/or problems. My home in TX before I left had a Smart Meter and I got an email every day on usage and patterns.

That is what is coming. That is what every utility, engineer, technician and politician knows. All you have now is just politics kicking the can down the road and no politician willing to tell the truth in fear of loosing a election. Politicians would rather see Black Outs and sky high rates before telling the truth risking loosing office. Remember Obama pledged in his 2008 campaign to punish Americans with sky rocketing electric energy bills. He kept his promise.

Now, I follow your point. Re. your first paragraph, CA installed a net 19 GW of capacity from 2001 to 2012. http://www.energy.ca.gov/renewables/...d_capacity.pdf So, to state that going green has cut capacity is factually incorrect. Energy consumption per capita in CA has slightly decreased from 1990 to 2010 while it increased for the rest of the country by about 12%. Meanwhile, CA population increased by about a quarter. http://energyalmanac.ca.gov/electric...1990-2010.html As for the importation of electricity from the northwest (mostly hydro if I undertand correctly) and from the southwest, I really don't see the problem. It's probably cheaper to stick a gas fired power plant in AZ.

While nuclear power has lots of upside, we have apparently only 80 years of proven reserves as of today: http://www.world-nuclear.org/info/Nu...ly-of-Uranium/ and that's based on today's consumption. Or maybe 230 years. http://www.scientificamerican.com/ar...deposits-last/ Or maybe 60,000 years if we can extract it economically from sea water, which apparently would be quite daunting as of today (http://spectrum.ieee.org/energy/nucl...l-from-the-sea). Of course, then there is that whole thing about having a bunch of nuclear reactor alongside the San Andreas fault...

So, the fact is that there aren't any silver bullets out there. While CA approach is not perfect, it had at least the merit of emphasizing the need for conservation, although probably not enough.

[Ian S]

CA installed a net 19 GW of capacity from 2001 to 2012. http://www.energy.ca.gov/renewables/...d_capacity.pdf So, to state that going green has cut capacity is factually incorrect.

FACTS?!!! We don't need no steenkin' facts!

[Sunking]

Now, I follow your point. Re. your first paragraph, CA installed a net 19 GW of capacity from 2001 to 2012. http://www.energy.ca.gov/renewables/...d_capacity.pdf So, to state that going green has cut capacity is factually incorrect.

No it is not. From your own link in 2002 CA generated 209,685 Gwh in State, Imported 62,859 Gwh for a total use of 272.544 Gwh. In 2002 CA imported 23% of their electricity.

In 2012 CA Generated 199,101 Gwh (-10,584), Imported 102,866 Gwh (40,007) for a total use of 301,967 Gwh (29,423) In 2012 CA imported 34% (67% increase of imports)of their electricity.

Those are the facts from your own link. In 10 short years CA base capacity has shrunk 6% and use has increased 10% . CA is loosing capacity, not gaining as you are trying to imply. CA energy policy is failing period.

[JCP]

No it is not. From your own link in 2002 CA generated 209,685 Gwh in State, Imported 62,859 Gwh for a total use of 272.544 Gwh. In 2002 CA imported 23% of their electricity.

In 2012 CA Generated 199,101 Gwh (-10,584), Imported 102,866 Gwh (40,007) for a total use of 301,967 Gwh (29,423) In 2012 CA imported 34% (67% increase of imports)of their electricity.

Those are the facts from your own link. In 10 short years CA base capacity has shrunk 6% and use has increased 10% . CA is loosing capacity, not gaining as you are trying to imply. CA energy policy is failing period.

I would like to understand how importing electricity is a measure of failure. I'm missing that link. What if we built more power plants than needed in CA and then proceeded to export to neighboring states? Would that be a measure of success? Or maybe it's just markets are work. Googlers build complex algorithms and AZ operates power plants. Comparative advantage at its finest.

Production and capacity are not the same. Fact is that capacity went from 55GW to 74GW in 2012 (72 when deducting San Onofrio). Total annual production went down in 2012 because of the San Onofrio nuclear plant shutdown.

It sure seems like you have an axe to grind with CA, because facts are not supporting your basic argument. Thanks for trying, it's entertaining.

[russ]

I would like to understand how importing electricity is a measure of failure.

As long as surrounding states have surplus power they are willing to export it isn't too much of a problem. As the NW and other SW states come up against capacity and especially with the loony new rules it will become very problematic. The imported power generally comes at a premium as well.

[Ian S]

As long as surrounding states have surplus power they are willing to export it isn't too much of a problem. As the NW and other SW states come up against capacity and especially with the loony new rules it will become very problematic. The imported power generally comes at a premium as well.

Actually, the California utilities own large shares of several power plants in Arizona. They don't really have to buy on the open market what they already own.

[russ]

Actually, the California utilities own large shares of several power plants in Arizona. They don't really have to buy on the open market what they already own.

CA was protesting Arizona policies a couple of years back and not wanting to take power from there - how did that work.

CA does take substantial power from the NW as well - I have seen the transmission lines many times - plus read about the fights over building additional capacity lines.

[Ian S]

CA was protesting Arizona policies a couple of years back and not wanting to take power from there - how did that work.

Political theater but it established that Arizona can't do anything about the power flowing into California. I can just imagine AZ Governor Jan Brewer wagging her bony old finger in the face of the SCE's head honcho as he laughs in her face! Actually, Arizona knew they couldn't do anything but they used the occasion to suggest that if California wanted to boycott Arizona goods and services, they should start with the electricity. It was a good point even though I detest the "papers please" law that started it all.

[russ]

Political theater but it established that Arizona can't do anything about the power flowing into California. I can just imagine AZ Governor Jan Brewer wagging her bony old finger in the face of the SCE's head honcho as he laughs in her face! Actually, Arizona knew they couldn't do anything but they used the occasion to suggest that if California wanted to boycott Arizona goods and services, they should start with the electricity. It was a good point even though I detest the "papers please" law that started it all.

Papers please law? I have lived in many countries around the world and in everyone of them you were either legal or in deep stuff - the US on that point is stupid. Enforce laws and have legal immigration. Enforce the employment side as well - nothing wrong with employers getting hit if they hire illegals.

[SunEagle]

As long as surrounding states have surplus power they are willing to export it isn't too much of a problem. As the NW and other SW states come up against capacity and especially with the loony new rules it will become very problematic. The imported power generally comes at a premium as well.

There are a number of states that export a lot of energy produced by Coal fired generators. With the new EPA rulings I see a lot of that excess energy going away due to coal plant closings. Then those other states that rely on that exported power will be up the creek looking to purchase the power (at a premium) from somewhere else.

[Mike90250]

I would like to understand how importing electricity is a measure of failure. I'm missing that link. What if we built more power plants than needed in CA and then proceeded to export to neighboring states? Would that be a measure of success? Or maybe it's just markets are work. Googlers build complex algorithms and AZ operates power plants. Comparative advantage at its finest.

Production and capacity are not the same. Fact is that capacity went from 55GW to 74GW in 2012 (72 when deducting San Onofrio). Total annual production went down in 2012 because of the San Onofrio nuclear plant shutdown.

It sure seems like you have an axe to grind with CA, because facts are not supporting your basic argument. Thanks for trying, it's entertaining.

California is trying to green itself. And it's failing. Lets make the air cleaner. Oh and get rid of the ugly power plant at the same time. That's a win-win. Oh, but we can't build a efficient replacement plant. And on a cold winter night, I want clean electric power to heat my house because gas can sometimes explode, or it makes my mother-in-law sick. And all the dammed up rivers, they should be free, so we'll knock down the dams and hydro plants. There , all pretty.

That's whats happening in California. And Arizona is building plants to sell electricity to Calif. And Mexico too.

[russ]

California is trying to green itself. And it's failing.

The entire west coast is playing that game in one way or another. I hate to go visit my brother in Oregon due to the loony green politics. Washington is playing catchup.

[JCP]

California is trying to green itself. And it's failing. Lets make the air cleaner. Oh and get rid of the ugly power plant at the same time. That's a win-win. Oh, but we can't build a efficient replacement plant. And on a cold winter night, I want clean electric power to heat my house because gas can sometimes explode, or it makes my mother-in-law sick. And all the dammed up rivers, they should be free, so we'll knock down the dams and hydro plants. There , all pretty.

That's whats happening in California. And Arizona is building plants to sell electricity to Calif. And Mexico too.

I don't disagree that we have crazy greenies in CA, but you're oversimplifying and disregarding the fact that CA has brought on line quite a few plants in state. Electricity capacity has gone up in the last 10 years. The fact that plants are going up in neighboring states probably has more to do with our crazy CEQA process and the fact that labor is cheaper in AZ than CA.

The one point I'll grant is that as a country, we'll need more capacity as long as we keep growing our population and economy. Hopefully, renewables are a big piece of it, because proven reserves of non renewables do not look good in the long run.