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  • Fusion Power

    An article about fusion power - still a ways out there like 20 plus years at a minimum - seems a couple of new approaches are showing dividends.

    http://www.extremetech.com/extreme/1...-than-expected

    In 2050 power will far more likely come from one of these than from rooftops or windmills.
    [SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]

  • #2
    Originally posted by russ View Post
    An article about fusion power
    Fusion power is a great idea (and quite literally powers every solar power system out there.) But confined fusion has a lot of problems. Even achieving ignition doesn't get you there - ignition just means there is enough energy to maintain the plasma; you need a lot more power to become a practical energy source. (And we haven't even reached ignition yet.) Another big problem is that fusion produces very energetic neutrons which induce radioactivity in anything nearby. So you quickly have a very radioactive chamber that remains "hot" even after you stop the reaction. Working with such a chamber is very difficult - as is fixing it and disposing of it.

    I think we will eventually get there. But like fission, it won't be the "clean, limitless power" source that it's being sold as. It will require large, heavy power plants, produce a significant amount of high level nuclear waste, and require heavy shielding and robotic control/maintenance. None of which is cheap.

    In 2050 power will far more likely come from one of these than from rooftops or windmills.
    I bet you it will be coming from both - fusion as a baseline source, wind and solar as opportunistic sources.

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    • #3
      From the linked article - ITER isn’t expected to fuse D-T fuel until 2027 (producing 500 megawatts for up to 1,000 seconds) — and an awful lot can happen in 15 years.

      The article points out the difficulties and the long road as well as the enormous sums of money involved.

      This is where the government belongs - doing things that the private sector never would be able to. This isn't subsidizing anything but paying for basic research that others can build on.
      [SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]

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      • #4
        Fusion power - the precursor of solar power!
        [SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]

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        • #5
          Originally posted by russ View Post
          Fusion power - the precursor of solar power!

          Extracting energy from a fusion reactor using PV?
          SunnyBoy 3000 US, 18 BP Solar 175B panels.

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          • #6
            I wish they spent the part of the money commericializing thorium reactors instead of dumping all of it it into fusion. Fusion have been "20 years" out there for a long time and if thorium reactors can use up all the left over nuke fuel stored all around the country, I think we would get many of the benefits in a lot quicker period of time.

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            • #7
              Originally posted by inetdog View Post
              Extracting energy from a fusion reactor using PV?
              Yep - The source is commonly called the sun.
              [SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]

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              • #8
                Originally posted by peakbagger View Post
                I wish they spent the part of the money commericializing thorium reactors instead of dumping all of it it into fusion. Fusion have been "20 years" out there for a long time and if thorium reactors can use up all the left over nuke fuel stored all around the country, I think we would get many of the benefits in a lot quicker period of time.
                They are spending large sums on thorium units as well - it is another technology that has been just around the corner for as many years as I can remember.
                [SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]

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                • #9
                  Originally posted by peakbagger View Post
                  I wish they spent the part of the money commericializing thorium reactors instead of dumping all of it it into fusion. Fusion have been "20 years" out there for a long time and if thorium reactors can use up all the left over nuke fuel stored all around the country, I think we would get many of the benefits in a lot quicker period of time.
                  That opens the Pandora's box of fuel reprocessing. And if we do do fuel reprocessing, we can reuse the fuel in our current reactors without the need for thorium-based reactors. We can even use degraded plutonium, of which we have a lot, to make MOX fuel. France already does this. There are pluses and minuses to doing it here; it's a complex and dangerous process.

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                  • #10
                    Originally posted by russ View Post
                    ITER isn’t expected to fuse D-T fuel until 2027 (producing 500 megawatts for up to 1,000 seconds) — and an awful lot can happen in 15 years.
                    Definitely true. And we may make some very important basic science discoveries along the way that will help us in other ways.

                    This is where the government belongs - doing things that the private sector never would be able to. This isn't subsidizing anything but paying for basic research that others can build on.
                    Well, it is, of course, subsidizing research and development that private industry doesn't want to do, because the payoff is too small/too far away/too risky. But in many cases (fission, fusion, solar-PV, wind) the societal benefits make it worth the money, even if such efforts sometimes fail or take nearly forever to bear fruit.

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                    • #11
                      Originally posted by russ View Post
                      They are spending large sums on thorium units as well - it is another technology that has been just around the corner for as many years as I can remember.
                      Thorium is a very old technology. Dates back to the 40's.
                      The reason this was abandoned back then in favor of fast breeders is the simple fact that you cannot create weapons from a Thorium Reactor.
                      This country (Government) was more interested in producing Plutonium for weapons. The power generation was simply a side benefit.
                      NABCEP certified Technical Sales Professional

                      [URL="http://www.solarpaneltalk.com/showthread.php?5334-Solar-Off-Grid-Battery-Design"]http://www.solarpaneltalk.com/showth...Battery-Design[/URL]

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                      • #12
                        Originally posted by billvon View Post
                        But in many cases (fission, fusion, solar-PV, wind) the societal benefits make it worth the money, even if such efforts sometimes fail or take nearly forever to bear fruit.
                        It just takes a little motivation, setting priorities, and removing politics out of it. Fission power was a theory in 1939 and two working nuclear power plants and 2 bombs by 1945.
                        MSEE, PE

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                        • #13
                          Originally posted by Sunking View Post
                          It just takes a little motivation, setting priorities, and removing politics out of it. Fission power was a theory in 1939 and two working nuclear power plants and 2 bombs by 1945.
                          Unfortunately, wars play a large part in driving technology. They do provide a strong motivation.
                          SunnyBoy 3000 US, 18 BP Solar 175B panels.

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                          • #14
                            Originally posted by Sunking View Post
                            It just takes a little motivation, setting priorities, and removing politics out of it.
                            Nuclear power was made possible by politics, as was the space race. We had to get fission bombs before the Germans, and fusion bombs before the Russians. We had to get to the moon before the USSR after they beat us to orbit. Those events provided the motivation, and politics provided the means; both efforts were funded completely by the government. Commercial nuclear fission was a side effect of that effort.

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                            • #15
                              Originally posted by billvon View Post
                              Nuclear power was made possible by politics
                              No way was it politics. One man made the decision, the POTUS under War Power Act. The POTUS has full power during war and does not have to consult Congress, Senate, or take a vote. Signs the XO and it is done. One man with a decision. Not Even POTUS Truman knew about the project until after FDR death. You cannot run a War on consensus. That is why the Constitution gives the POTUS full power when the War Power Act is granted by Congress.
                              MSEE, PE

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