TOU Rates

[ajzwilli]

I have been on a TOU plan for about 10 years (optional with my POCO). Normal supply rates are around 4-6 cents during peak and 1-4 cents for off peak per kWh. Highest I can ever recall was maybe low teens (~14 cents), but that was for just an hour of one day (i.e. hot summer afternoon). I think lowest I ever saw was 0.1 cents. For those not on TOU the supply charge is 4.55 cents. However, here is what rates have looked like the last few days for me given the strain on the power grid at least in the middle of the US (I'm in IL):

date-high-low-avg (cents/kWh)
2/14-10-5-7
2/15-17-6-12
2/16-45-13-21
2/17-47-18-29
2/18-32-11-19
2/19-22-5-11

With temps warming up, expect rates to be back to normal by next week, but for anyone on this TOU plan without solar would have a considerably higher February bill. With solar, my supply charge has totaled a credit of $12.4 from 2/14 to 2/19 (had to clear the snow off - not sure I would have if rates would have been normal). Also did not charge the PHEV this week at these rates (primarily to conserve energy for the power grid).

Just thought I would share. I know some of these supply rates may seem "normal" for other parts of the country, but curious if anyone has / is seeing rates as high as 47 cents / kWh.

[J.P.M.]

If the regular rates you write of were that low everywhere, there wouldn't be a solar PV industry. You sure about those rates ?

Bruce, any thoughts ?

[ajzwilli]

Yes. I did say this was the rate for the supply only. Bruce may be higher if he is on ComEd.

http://www.pluginillinois.org/FixedRateBreakdownAmeren.aspx

[ajzwilli]

Solar still works for those in IL, but only because of the generous SREC - I received over $12,000.

https://www.solarpaneltalk.com/forum/solar-panels-for-home/solar-panels-for-your-home/422556-professional-solar-financial-scam-almost-every-where-usa-vs-regular-utility-rates/page3#post422614

[bcroe]

The Com Ed electric supply charge here 29 Jan was $0.05853 per KWH, a
transmission services charge of $0.01216 per KWH, and a delivery charge
of $0.03787 per KWH. However I do not buy any KWH so my monthly
customer charges are $14.28. I have not figured out how to make SRECs
work in IL, seems to be difficult, and not my main concern.

I hear of TOU accounts, none of that here. And of peak unloading, appliance
control. Sure I could postpone the laundry a bit, but turning off the solar
would mean that production is lost forever. Bruce Roe

[ajzwilli]

"Turning off the solar would mean that production is lost forever". I'm not sure I understand that, can you expand/clarify?
I believe Ameren and ComEd are generally subject to the same terms on net metering and TOU plan, but I will admit I have not looked at the ComEd TOU plan (RRTP as it is called). The following is how it works for Ameren:
With fixed rate in IL - you build a KWH credit. With TOU, you build a dollar credit. Like I mentioned, I produced a $12.40 supply credit over the 2/14 to 2/19 period. When we get back to normal rates, I will have a much larger credit that if were on fixed rate. @ 4.55 cents a kwh for supply, that is equivalent to a 272 kWh credit. However, I only had excess generation of 50 kWh during that time period. However, since I charge my EV at night, at around 2 cents under normal conditions, that could closer to 600 kWh that I can spend that supply credit on. This model in theory would allow one to under size the array and still cover the supply costs. However, if you did that, it wouldn't offset the distribution costs.
Also, at least with Ameren with TOU, if I have a distribution credit - I can use that to offset my fixed meter and customer charge. Due to WFH this past year and not charging EV as much - I did not pay the POCO a penny until production fell off in November. For my time period (May to April), I'm currently running at $80 supply credit (equal to roughly 1,750 kWh credit @ 4.55 rate), but my surplus production to date is only around 1,300 kWh.

The only load shifting I have done is 1) run electric dryer on weekends or evenings 2) charge car around 1 or 2 AM (average 2 cent SUPPLY cost) 3) pre-cool the house in summer (i.e. cool house down lower than my normal temp in AM so it doesn't run as much in the afternoon). 4) run dishwasher evenings or overnight. Saved about $100 each year over the 10 years I've been doing it and that was without an EV. With an EV and without solar - my savings would have easily doubled on a TOU plan.

FYI, regarding SREC in IL - my understanding is you need to go through an approved vendor for the Illinois Adjustable Block Program on a new install. That program is currently full, but they are expecting to release more blocks. However for you Bruce with an existing system there may be an option to sell your SREC on your own. In IL, each SREC is currently worth about $70. You could try contacting Carbon Solutions Group or SRECTrade to see if there is any value there.

[bcroe]

"Turning off the solar would mean that production is
lost forever". I'm not sure I understand that, can you expand/clarify?

The only load shifting I have done..

FYI, regarding SREC in IL - my understanding is you need to go through an
approved vendor for the Illinois Adjustable Block Program on a new install.

Generally renewable energy must be collected when it is available, I can not just
turn on the solar later that night. I think solar timing is not bad for the PoCo, just
when they are trying to run all those air conditioners, solar is supplying max. But
I do no load shifting.

No $ exchanged on this plan, just KWH. About 14,000 KWH credit builds in the
summer, most of that and whatever I can generate gets used by the end of winter.
The payoff is an end to buying fuel that must be burned. Probably will not get
into the SREC game any time soon. Bruce Roe

[ajzwilli]

Thanks for the follow up. I'm apologize, I still don't understand why the comment was made regarding the solar array being "off". Regardless of being on TOU or fixed price - your solar array collects the same amount of energy and you get a credit when you generate more than you use (and loose that credit balance in April (or Oct)). The only difference is credits in kWh vs $. I appreciate your wisdom and years of experience and I have read many of your posts. Based on what I have presented, do you feel I would be better off financially on a fixed rate plan or TOU plan? You may or may not have enough to answer, and happy to provide more, but I'm open to switching to fixed rate if you are thinking it may be better for me based on what I've shared.

Also, one last thing on the SREC - the $ is nothing to sneeze at - I can't quickly find the size of your system but if you are generating a 14 MWh credit, then your total production must be significant. Even @ 20 MWh of annual production - you are talking about $1,400 a year in SRECs. Again, I have no evidence that you can sell your SRECs independently, but at the current market price at around $70/SREC, it could be worth a quick email or call.

[bcroe]

Based on what I have presented, do you feel I would
be better off financially on a fixed rate plan or TOU plan?

Also, one last thing on the SREC - the $ is nothing to sneeze at

You will get much better financial advice from J. P. M., I am still running science
projects (including my whole career) and not giving much attention to $ or SRECs.
The annual solar production has been running 29MWH. Bruce Roe

[ajzwilli]

Thank you Bruce for your time, I wanted to make sure I wasn't mis-understanding you. I've spent several hours reading the tariffs and rates structures from Ameren and doing financial analysis before going solar, so I feel confident that a TOU is the right plan for me financially. BTW, I'm just 2 hours straight south of you on 51. I interpreted JPM's reply to indicate that I don't know what I'm talking about, but that likely is based on his experience with newer posters on this forum, so it is likely warranted.

While science is your main goal - I'm more than confident you can sell your SRECs, I'm just not sure how much you can get from them. Looks like ComEd was required to pay $67 per SREC per year as of the most recent block - so you are looking at possibly up to $2,000 a year for basically allowing PJM-EIS to monitor your output so ComEd can get credit for green energy to meets it mandate. I can look into it for you for 50% share of your SREC

[Ampster]

....... I interpreted JPM's reply to indicate that I don't know what I'm talking about, but that likely is based on his experience with newer posters on this forum;;;;;;;;;;;
;;;;;;;;

Unless things have changed, @J.P.M. has not actually used a TOU rate. He makes good arguments, under some circumstances why other tariffs can be optimal. I have used TOU rates sucessfully and optimally for 8 years. It all depends on where you are standing, not whether you are a new poster.

[ajzwilli]

Thanks for the context Ampster. However, if I'm not mistaken, JPMs comments had nothing to do with TOU rates, he was questioning if I really knew what my rate was and was indicating at those rates, no solar industry would exist. As the point of this thread was on TOU and wanting to know what others have seen for peak rates, I focused on supply charge only as fixed charges, distribution and tax rates are identical between TOU and fixed rate supply cost for me. I made it clear in my post I was using the supply rate. As Bruce pointed out and I was fully aware, there are additional charges and those variable charges total 4 cents for me. Coupled with my pre-solar average TOU rate of 3 cents, my total variable cost was around 7 cents and I have a break-even of less than 3 years.

[J.P.M.]

I interpreted JPM's reply to indicate that I don't know what I'm talking about, but that likely is based on his experience with newer posters on this forum, so it is likely warranted.

.

You may/may not know what you're talking (writing) about, but the correctness/incorrectness/state of your knowledge about electricity rates and of what you write in your post is something I'm ignorant about at this time. So, your inference was/is incorrect.

I was referring to the $0.14/kWh you referenced as a high (prior ?) hourly T.O.U. rate as well as the other rates such as that $0.01/ kWh. Maybe I'm confused by the terminology you use and my possible unfamiliarity with it but that rate seems pretty low compared to many other rates. As for the other T.O.U rates you publish or 02/14 - 02/19, they seem to bounce around quite a bit leading me to think the price has something to do with supply and/or the weather.

Assuming they are a matter of public knowledge, maybe you could indulge me a bit with a point to where I could find info information about ComEd's or Ameren's (which one is your POCO ?) rates and tell me what rate plan you're on, I could educate myself with some background about what you're writing about and learn something.

[J.P.M.]

Unless things have changed, @J.P.M. has not actually used a TOU rate.

You are correct and things have not changed for me in that respect. I'm not on T.O.U rates because I know a lot about my POCO's rates and tariffs and almost as much about the other two CA I.O.U's rates and tariff policies and know that I'm better off staying on tiered rates at this time. Until/If/When/Unless SDG & E's (my POCO) policy changes, being an NEM 1.0 customer allows me to stay on tiered rates until 10/13/33 or so, or if/until/when I find tariffs, rates or policies change making it more cost effective to not be on tiered rates.

[ajzwilli]

Here is where the hourly rates are published for Ameren.

https://www.ameren.com/account/retail-energy

I'm going from memory on the .1 cent, but as of 11/15/20, there was a rate of .6 cents at 3AM, but if you pull enough history, you should be able to find something close to .1 cent, I want to say it was in the last 2-3 years.
As i mentioned in my first post, the recent prices are "high" for my POCO and are bouncing around due to the strain on the power grid from the recent cold snap impacting most of the central US. It was interesting that ComEd's TOU rates didn't seem to get as high as Ameren's over this past week. If you look at data prior to 2/14, you will see rates are more stable and in line with the fixed rate of 4.5 cents for Ameren.

Look forward to hearing back from you after you review.