Solar From Your Local Utility Provider?

[TerenceD]

Hi - I'm completely aware this isn't probably the typical solar question, but I hope those on the forum will hear me out and offer any feedback that comes to mind. I'm *very* interested in doing my part to transition to renewable energy sources. I'm a renter in the St. Louis area (Missouri). If I owned, one of the first things I'd do is install solar panels, but that's not currently possible. My local electric utility provider is Ameren Missouri. For a long time now they've had a program called "Pure Power", which I've been a member of for the last few years.

Ameren's Pure Power program is supposed to purchase the equivalent amount of electricity I use from a renewable source. This costs me a few more cents per kWh, which I'm happy to pay if my energy is coming from a renewable source. In my case, the renewable source is wind. Reportedly, Ameren has a wind farm in Northwest Missouri they generate *some* power from. I haven't been able to find the exact numbers, but I'm nearly positive the majority of their energy is generated from non-renewable sources (coal, nuclear, gas/oil).

Recently I found that Ameren is offering a new renewable energy program: Solar. They've built a new 1MW solar facility in the St. Louis area. More info here and here, but basically they are allowing customers to purchase "solar power in blocks" of 100 kWh units each month, up to half of their power usage.

I understand the *actual* electricity that comes to my apartment isn't coming directly from a wind farm (or solar if I switch to that), but that Ameren is supposed to source my equivalent usage into their grid from wind.

I'm wondering if anyone on the forum has any insight into these types of programs? Are they 100% legit or is there possibly some creative math being used? Is this really as good as if I generated all of my power myself from wind and solar? Is Ameren doing this because of government mandate or are they legitimately interested in transitioning to renewable sources?

Despite extensive web searching I can't find a lot of concrete details, more just "fluff" info from Ameren themselves. I would love to hear any thoughts on this topic as I cannot find anyone locally who has ever been involved or even aware of Ameren's Pure Power or new Solar Community projects. Thank you.

[Mike90250]

You put a kilowatt in Here, and .999kilowatt comes out your outlet. a little bit of line losses.
AFIK, it's a soothing way to wear a green coat. The I/O is legit. The actual savings comes from not consuming the electricity, not simply changing the source.

[azdave]

Is Ameren doing this because of government mandate or are they legitimately interested in transitioning to renewable sources?

Many utilities have a mandate to provide a certain amount of their electricity from renewable sources whether they want to or not. Most utilities have not taken the RE path willingly.


In Arizona for instance;

In 2006, the Commission approved the Renewable Energy Standard and Tariff (REST). These rules require that regulated electric utilities must generate 15 percent of their energy from renewable resources by 2025. Each year, Arizona's utility companies are required to file annual implementation plans describing how they will comply with the REST rules. The proposals include incentives for customers who install solar energy technologies for their own homes and businesses. The Commission's Renewable Energy Standards encourage utilities to use solar, wind, biomass, biogas, geothermal and other similar technologies to generate "clean" energy to power Arizona's future.


More recently in Arizona;

The Arizona Corporation Commission is proposing that 50% of the state's electricity come from renewables by 2030, that 100% be carbon-emission free by 2050 and that 35% of Arizona's electricity demand is met with energy efficiency measures by 2030 and thereafter.

Arizona already has a requirement that electric utilities get 15% of their power from renewables like solar and wind by 2025. It was enacted in 2006, with interim steps to get there. This year, they are required to get 10% of their energy from such sources.

[TerenceD]

You put a kilowatt in Here, and .999kilowatt comes out your outlet. a little bit of line losses.
AFIK, it's a soothing way to wear a green coat. The I/O is legit. The actual savings comes from not consuming the electricity, not simply changing the source.

Hi Mike - Thanks for the reply. I *think* I hear what you're saying. A typical grid user could switch to this but would likely continue to consume as much power as they had before. I'm guessing once you install your own system, and depend upon that for all of your power usage, you become *a lot* more conscious of wasting power. In other words, you're much less likely to leave the lights on, or buy a home appliance (fridge, washer, dryer) without any thought to how power efficient it is.

[bob-n]

Mike is right. If your goal is to save energy, use less energy. Insulate, get efficient appliances, line dry your clothes, do without, go naked in the summer, etc.

Unfortunately, there is no direct link between what we pay for power and what it costs to produce, especially when it comes to these special plans. Don't expect to get your money's worth. Rates are all fudged by politics.

That said, your decision really does matter. For example, if EVERYONE adopted the Ameren Solar plan, Ameren would have to INVEST EXCLUSIVELY in solar. You are voting with your dollars to get them to invest more in solar. It may mean building one more solar farm, or it may mean paying more to people making solar power so they invest more. Your choice really does make a difference, as much as any one vote matters in any election.

I wonder if plans like Ameren Solar allow them to buy renewable energy certificates (RECs) to say that they are selling you green power. If so, that would be another way that your choice influences the world to make more solar power. It sounds bogus, but in the world of big power, all types of demand influence investment.

We homeowners that have installed solar on our rooftops are allowed to sell our green rights to power companies and others legally obligated to invest in solar, in the form of RECs. We don't get rich on RECs, but it is a small portion of our return on investment. As more utilities and large consumers are required to go green, the rate paid for RECs goes up. The higher the rate for RECs, the more economical it is for homeowners to install solar, so more homeowners will go solar. Sorry, that's an oversimplified explanation, but in the big picture, it matters.

[J.P.M.]

You want to save the most $$ and also do the most for the planet ?? Simply use less energy.
The planet will be better off and you'll maximize your savings/minimize your energy costs by not paying for what you don't use.
If you develop frugal habits, anything you do in the future will be more effective because it'll be offsetting smaller loads.

[TerenceD]

Hi Bob - Awesome reply, thank you for that! I've made some replies inline below:

Mike is right. If your goal is to save energy, use less energy. Insulate, get efficient appliances, line dry your clothes, do without, go naked in the summer, etc.

Ah, apologies, I should have clarified in my original post. My prime goal is to eliminate my use of non-renewable power as much as possible. I want to do my part as much as possible to help this country/world get away from fossil fuel use. However, reduction of power use and efficiency has been a longtime interest. Even though I rent, I do as much as possible to reduce my electric usage. My profession is software engineering, so I'm a total numbers dork to begin with, so for a long time now, I track my monthly energy usage and have played the game of "how much can I reduce this usage" compared to the same month a year ago. It's fun.

Unfortunately, there is no direct link between what we pay for power and what it costs to produce, especially when it comes to these special plans. Don't expect to get your money's worth. Rates are all fudged by politics.

No worries, I'm not concerned about the cost. I'm happy to pay a premium if my electricity is coming from a renewable source.

That said, your decision really does matter. For example, if EVERYONE adopted the Ameren Solar plan, Ameren would have to INVEST EXCLUSIVELY in solar. You are voting with your dollars to get them to invest more in solar. It may mean building one more solar farm, or it may mean paying more to people making solar power so they invest more. Your choice really does make a difference, as much as any one vote matters in any election.

This is great news, and exactly the effect I want to have. My fear (and the main reason for my original post) is that, through creative math, failure of enforcement or just plain political/governmental chicanery, my participation in Ameren Solar or Pure Power was really having no effect as far as having my power usage come from a renewable source or not.

I wonder if plans like Ameren Solar allow them to buy renewable energy certificates (RECs) to say that they are selling you green power. If so, that would be another way that your choice influences the world to make more solar power. It sounds bogus, but in the world of big power, all types of demand influence investment.

So, I did a little refresher research just now on RECs and Ameren Pure Power (the wind program I'm currently subscribed to) and it appears indeed that they're accounting based on RECs. Quote: "Ameren Missouri contracts for RECs to match the equivalent of your ongoing electrical needs". Source: https://www.ameren.com/missouri/comp...y-certificates

This is great news as far as the credibility of the program and assuring my power usage is indeed coming from a renewable source due to participating in the Ameren Pure Power program. Agree?

We homeowners that have installed solar on our rooftops are allowed to sell our green rights to power companies and others legally obligated to invest in solar, in the form of RECs. We don't get rich on RECs, but it is a small portion of our return on investment. As more utilities and large consumers are required to go green, the rate paid for RECs goes up. The higher the rate for RECs, the more economical it is for homeowners to install solar, so more homeowners will go solar. Sorry, that's an oversimplified explanation, but in the big picture, it matters.

Interesting. Yes, I was vaguely aware of the idea that utility companies were required to purchase excess solar homeowners pumped back into the system. That's great news as well.

[TerenceD]

You want to save the most $$ and also do the most for the planet ?? Simply use less energy.
The planet will be better off and you'll maximize your savings/minimize your energy costs by not paying for what you don't use.

Thanks for the reply, JPM! Saving money is great, but yeah, my prime goal is to do the most for the planet as I possibly can. And yes, my frugal habits are well developed at this point and I'm always looking for more. Examples: I'm currently typing this from my apartment (on a staycation week away from work) with the windows open and no AC, even though the humidity is a bit high ...I purposely own a small apartment to keep heating/cooling costs as low as possible, and in winter keep my heat low and work/live in my small office w/space heater, and also ride my bike to work most days instead of drive.

If you develop frugal habits, anything you do in the future will be more effective because it'll be offsetting smaller loads.

Totally agree with this quote and always try and keep this in mind with my energy usage. Thumbs up!

[TerenceD]

Many utilities have a mandate to provide a certain amount of their electricity from renewable sources whether they want to or not. Most utilities have not taken the RE path willingly.


In Arizona for instance;

In 2006, the Commission approved the Renewable Energy Standard and Tariff (REST). These rules require that regulated electric utilities must generate 15 percent of their energy from renewable resources by 2025. Each year, Arizona's utility companies are required to file annual implementation plans describing how they will comply with the REST rules. The proposals include incentives for customers who install solar energy technologies for their own homes and businesses. The Commission's Renewable Energy Standards encourage utilities to use solar, wind, biomass, biogas, geothermal and other similar technologies to generate "clean" energy to power Arizona's future.


More recently in Arizona;

The Arizona Corporation Commission is proposing that 50% of the state's electricity come from renewables by 2030, that 100% be carbon-emission free by 2050 and that 35% of Arizona's electricity demand is met with energy efficiency measures by 2030 and thereafter.

Arizona already has a requirement that electric utilities get 15% of their power from renewables like solar and wind by 2025. It was enacted in 2006, with interim steps to get there. This year, they are required to get 10% of their energy from such sources.

Okay, thank you Dave. This helps me better understand why this is being done by the utility companies. I suspected it was some sort of government mandate, but your detailed info helps make it clearer.

[foo1bar]

I'm guessing once you install your own system, and depend upon that for all of your power usage, you become *a lot* more conscious of wasting power.

Not what I've experienced for grid tie systems.
It's more "Electricity is free now because we have solar!" - and consumption goes up.
(and anecdotally, I have heard similar things from other households, not just mine)

Probably if you're off-grid, you become a lot more conscious - because you don't want to run a generator nor ruin your batteries.

[TerenceD]

Not what I've experienced for grid tie systems.
It's more "Electricity is free now because we have solar!" - and consumption goes up.
(and anecdotally, I have heard similar things from other households, not just mine)

Probably if you're off-grid, you become a lot more conscious - because you don't want to run a generator nor ruin your batteries.

Ah, interesting. Good points.

[bcroe]

Hi Mike - Thanks for the reply. I *think* I hear what you're saying. A typical grid user could switch to this but would likely continue to consume as much power as they had before. I'm guessing once you install your own system, and depend upon that for all of your power usage, you become *a lot* more conscious of wasting power. In other words, you're much less likely to leave the lights on, or buy a home appliance (fridge, washer, dryer) without any thought to how power efficient it is.

Not necessarily. My early plan was to avoid wasting energy, a diminishing returns plan. The
array was added so I could expand my electric consumption by 5 times while setting energy
purchases all the way to zero. That did include eliminating the heating/air conditioning costs.
Bruce Roe

[J.P.M.]

Not what I've experienced for grid tie systems.
It's more "Electricity is free now because we have solar!" - and consumption goes up.
(and anecdotally, I have heard similar things from other households, not just mine)

Probably if you're off-grid, you become a lot more conscious - because you don't want to run a generator nor ruin your batteries.

FWIW, and maybe a bit more than anecdotal (but, truth to tell, not as analytical as I might like), of the dozen or so folks in my HOA who cooperate with me and allow me to look at their electric bills, their usage has gone up ~ 5-10 % or so in the first yr./two after PV addition. Usage seems to sort of level off after that.