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Are SCE Peak Time Rebate (PTR)/Save Power Days Credits "Real Money" under NEM?

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  • Are SCE Peak Time Rebate (PTR)/Save Power Days Credits "Real Money" under NEM?

    I just got my first true up bill under NEM 1.0 and I feel like some money has gone missing.

    I did over produce for the year by 354 kWh providing a whopping $10.90 in Net Surplus Compensation (I guess I'll just have to use more electricity this year)
    I had a gigantic credit for the year (almost $900 due to TOU rates) - this doesn't actually mean anything, I know
    I got my two CA Climate Credits for $31 and $36
    I participated in Save Power Plus days and according to my bills had a total of $33.75 in credit

    On my true up, the calculations came out like this:
    +31 - CA Climate Credit
    +36 - CA Climate Credit
    +10.90 - Net Surplus Compensation
    -9.80 - New months minimum charge

    Creating a $68.10 net credit. The 10.90 got rolled forward (per my preference for Net Surplus Compensation) and they list a $57.20 refund coming my way. Where did the Save Power Days/PTR credits go? I was under the impression those were "real money" just like the CA Climate Credit and either should get rolled forward or refunded. Am I totally wrong which basically makes being in that program totally worthless to those on NEM who run a negative balance for the year (even if not over-producing)?
    Last edited by jasonvr; 07-02-2018, 04:01 PM.

  • #2
    You should get your $40 (or whatever it is) power days credit and it should be applied directly to your bill, just like the Climate Credits are. They'll be eaten up by the end of the NEM year with the $10/mo minimum delivery chargers.

    The TOU credit will get get sucked back down in months where you're under-producing (assuming system is designed to only produce your annual average production) not sure how you got a $10.90 Net Surplus Compensation on this bill (assuming I'm understanding this as the ~$0.03/kWh that if you have any extra production at the end of the NEM that they'll give you.)

    I wonder if this if they do something special where they run the NEM from July 1 - June 30 or something, and you got one month at the end of the year, and thus got both credits, plus the EOY close out.

    Next months bill should be interesting for you.


    • #3
      Hmmm, my climate credit and PTR credits NEVER got applied to my minimum monthly (~10/month). They always got rolled into my running "energy charges" which just got trued up. The only times my bill was below $10 was when I was under-producing in the winter and had positive net delivery charges. My relevant period should have ended 6/13 (exactly 1 year after going onto NEM), but it is unclear if they just extended it until the end of my June bill or not.

      Net surplus compensation was because I did overproduce for the year by 354kWh (my first year and I was still being somewhat conservative on my usage to make sure everything worked out). 354 x 0.03080 = 10.90.

      Note that as of January 1, the Save Power Days program seems to have drastically changed. In the old program they looked at previous average usage and for every kWh you save compared to that, they gave you $1.25. In the new program there is a flat $10/month incentive to be in the program, plus something like 7 cents/kWh you save. All of my credit were for 2017 under the old program.


      • #4
        Ok, I missunderstood, that was you're annual True-Up. I was thinking it was your first month bill. Are you sure you're still on the Saving Power Days plan? I can't even do that on SG&E w/ new Solar Install.

        You're definitely screwed on the NEM credit, it goes back to a 0 balance, you get that $10.90 value of it about $0.03/kWh.

        Your bill should say something like 'Rate Schedule: ETOUB B Residential Time-of-Use Service', Enrolled Programs: "Net Energy Metering (NEM2)"

        I believe the billing looks fairly similar across the CA PoCo's due to state regulations (at least the example bills between different CA PoCo's I've seen have been that way.)


        • #5
          Definitely still enrolled (and even if I wasn't they'd still owe me the credits from last year). On my bill it says:
          You are currently enrolled in the Smart Energy Program, formerly called Save Power Day Incentive Plus. When an energy event is
          activated, your smart thermostat service provider may remotely adjust the temperature on your thermostat to limit A/C usage in
          exchange for bill credits. Thank you for your participation.

          Rate is TOU-D-A

          I knew about the NEM credit and getting compensated is a horrible rate of return. I hope to get an EV in the next few years which should fix that. In the mean time, maybe just more AC

          I think I'm going to have to contact SCE to see what happened to my PTR credits


          • #6
            Yeah, next car will likely be an EV for me as well, but my current one is only 6yrs old and treating me well... I'm overproducing by a whopping 20% from PVWatts numbers for my first month. I'm a bit shocked, I thought I must have miscalculated, but PVWatts was giving me the same annual numbers as 4 different installers suggest an 8kW system at my location would give. I triple checked all other numbers (angles, azimuth, roof mounted, ...) I might have gotten a couple percent because of slightly lower than average temps for June, but nothing to indicate 20%, so I'm talking me wife into allowing me to drop the temps down a couple degrees on days where the Whole House Fan can't be used over night to keep the heat build up in the walls down a bit, and check the consumption numbers after that.

            Would you be going the EV TOU rate when you get an EV? If so, and there's a similar rate plan as the TOU-D-A but no credit for Power Days, I'd switch to it since you're effectively not getting the credit, but you're paying the 'penalty' with the Power Days.


            • #7
              Save power days is an add on to another rate (TOU-D-A for me), so no need to switch rates. If they're really not going to give me the credit, I can just unenroll from the program because I'm not getting any benefit from it

              If/when I get an EV, I'll probably get a submeter installed to keep it on the EV rate while the rest of the house stays on the regular TOU, but given the credit I built up due to TOU, it might not even be necessary.


              • #8
                I contacted SCE's NEM department today and got an answer I was not expecting. Because I was a net producer for the year, I'm not entitled to received my Save Power Days compensation. They consider it double dipping. Instead I only get my Net Surplus compensation which is 1/3 of what I should have gotten out of Save Power Days. Guess I'll be unenrolling from that program. Absolutely amazing that they are actively encouraging me to use MORE electricity in order to pay less

                1) If I consume more electricity in a month I can drive up my delivery charges which count against my monthly minimum but will get netted out with generation credits at the end of the year
                2) If I consume more electricity I wold have been a net consumer (even if I had a negative total energy charge) and would have received my Save Power Days money
                3) If I continue to be a slight net producer for the year, I don't get my Save Power Days money, so I might as well not be a part of the program and blast the AC to stay comfortable when the grid is under the most stress

                Totally ridiculous, and of course I can find no place where that is disclosed


                • #9
                  Well, I've scoured SCEs site and the tariffs and can't find anything that would disallow the credits, so now I've filed an informal CPUC complaint to see if that gets traction


                  • #10
                    Amazingly I am still fighting with SCE. I submitted my informal complaint and got a response back pretty quickly. I had to explain the issue several times and the closest answer I got was that I was eligible for the program.... Well of course I was! Then I explained again and the SCE rep was supposed to have the program manager call me. When no one called me, I called her back and was told to write everything down so it could be submitted in writing tot he program manager. I did that on August 1 and was told I'd have a response within 3 business days.

                    That deadline came and went, contacted her again and got "should have a response soon". That was August 8. On August 16 I sent another email asking for an answer giving a deadline to hear back of COB Monday August 20. No response by that morning so I called a couple of times and got a "just saw your email" and still didn't have a response......

                    At this point I'm not sure what to do. I guess the next step would be to go to a formal complaint but that seems like a real pain in the @ss.... But maybe it would actually light a fire under them.

                    For those that are interested, here is the detailed explanation I submitted
                    First, I'm going to define some terms I'll use in my explanation and question.

                    Real Money:
                    Amounts that appear as a bill credit on my bill that can be used to pay a bill from SCE that would otherwise be deducted from my checking account on a monthly basis

                    Virtual Money:
                    Amounts adding to the running total referred to as "year-to-date energy charges" on my monthly bill and totaled to $897.47 for my first relevant period which ended in June 2018. Basically any credits on my monthly bills that are not applied against an amount I owe to SCE in that month.

                    During the 2017 calendar year I participated in the Save Power Plus Days (DLC) Incentive Program which is the precursor to the current (for 2018) Save Energy Program (SEP). During 2017, I accumulated $33.75 in credit from that program spread across my June, July, and August bills. That $33.75 was rolled into year-to-date energy charges making it virtual money at that point, i.e. it did not offset the amount I had to pay to SCE in those months. These amounts are listed as PTR Credits on my bills.

                    During 2018, I had one month (June) which fell within my relevant period and my bill showed a $9.17 program credit. Again, that amount rolled into my year-to-date energy charges and was virtual money.

                    Within my relevant NEM period (June 2017-June 2018) I also received my two California Climate Credits of $31 and $36 in October 2017 and March 2018 respectively. Again, on those bills, those amounts were rolled into my year-to-date energy charges making them virtual money at that point.

                    Finally, in June 2018, at my annual true, I was a net producer by 354 kWh meaning I received Net Surplus Compensation of $10.90. That was treated as real money and became a credit on my SCE account. That credit was subsequently applied against my July 2018 bill which I just received.

                    At the same time, my California Climate credits, which up until this point had been treated as virtual money, were converted to real money. The total of $67 dollars was applied to my account and used to pay my June bill of $9.80 (composed of 29 days of the 3.1 cent basic charge and $8.90 to meet the minimum monthly charge). Since that still resulted in a credit, SCE issued a physical check for the difference of $57.20 ($67-$9.80).

                    I expected that at my annual true up my PTR Credits and SEP Credits would convert to real money just like the California Climate Credit did. Instead, they remained virtual money and completely disappeared when my relevant period ended at the end of June 2018 and my year-to-date energy charge total reverted to 0 to start my next relevant period. Since these are referred to as "Bill Credits" I would like to know why these amounts are not being converted to real money (either as a bill credit like my Net Surplus Compensation or as a refund check like the California Climate Credit). The only answer I have received (when I contact the NEM department by phone) is that because I was a Net Producer for the year, I am not eligible to receive my PTR/SEP credits. I can find nowhere in the terms for either the old or new programs that indicates that is true. Ms. Deon Hall has confirmed that I am eligible for participation in the programs. The 2017 program unfortunately has very little formal documentation. However, the new program has a formal tariff document (Schedule SEP). Nowhere in that tariff document does it exclude payment if a customer is a Net Generator.

                    So, to reiterate, I would like to know why my PTR Credits and SEP Credits, which are referred to as Bill Credits under the program terms, were not converted to real money when my relevant period ended in June 2018.
                    Last edited by jasonvr; 08-25-2018, 02:41 AM.


                    • #11
                      So here's some fun

                      Since I never got a response, I ended up filing a formal complaint. I then informed the person who was working my informal complaint via email and again, no response

                      However, 3 days later I got a random bill notification from SCE. It was a bill credit of 9.17. At first I thought it was my SONGS Settlement credit, but I couldn't tell, so I called the NEM department. As I was on the phone with them, it dawned on me that 9.17 was the exact amount of SEP credit from my June bill! The NEM agent then further dug into it and found a note on my account clearly indicating it was a credit for the incorrectly forfeited SEP credit! And it was applied by Consumer Affairs - the department I had been working with. The note clearly stated that this was a credit as the money never should have been forfeited and this was a temporary measure until the problem can be fixed!

                      So, I sent another email (not that I expect to get a response) indicating that all the 2017 credits are still missing (another ~$33).

                      So what does this all mean? Well, I can't imagine this is an isolated case. What are the odds this is only happening to my account? What this probably means is that SCE is systematically overcharging NEM customers who also participate in the Save Energy Program (and it's predecessors)!

                      If you fall in both camps, take a look at your bills and see if you are affected

                      and...I just got a read receipt on the email I sent to Consumer Affairs a few minutes ago as I was typing this