New house construction in southern California

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  • J.P.M.
    Solar Fanatic
    • Aug 2013
    • 14926

    #16
    Originally posted by Mike90250
    The stove computer controls the gas valve. The thermister controls the burn time of the fuel. Without the module working, the gas does not turn on. No gas present for the match to light.
    Like lawnmowers that turn themselves off when you let go the blade clutch.... Or the new sealed emission gas cans that dribble fuel all over everywhere, but into the lawnmower
    [FONT=comic sans ms]"we know better than you"




    Actually, no, they deliver more BTU's than iron stove (iron stoves send at least 60% of the heat out the flue), and emit less pollution then a 1 yr old catalytic stove.
    They take at least 24hr to begin to radiate heat from a cold start (but after the last fire, they will provide heat for another 24 hours)





    EPA exemption
    Understood on the cooking stove. My gas valves are not locked out by power outage.

    On the masonry heater, I'll change (correct ?) what I wrote and say that the masonry heater combustion method can have higher combustion efficiency than a decent wood stove. It can also have lower combustion efficiency than other methods, depending on the combustion process used. Same for any combustion products and their pollutants. The efficiency of a masonry heater's combustion process is independent of the type and amount of masonry used (the thermal mass). An efficient process with a lot of thermal mass around it (thermally coupled to is the correct term) will be as efficient as the same process with no thermal mass around it.

    For the same combustion process, the type or amount of thermal mas used will not change the efficiency of that combustion process. Nor will a lumped mass system such as a masonry heater change the building envelope or the infiltration/exfiltration rate heat loss characteristics of the building. Burning a cord of the same wood will produce as much heat wioth or without thermal mass around it.

    It's probably demonstrable that an equal amount of thermal mass distributed around the building perimeter on the warm side of exterior insulation will provide a perception of a more comfortable environment than an equally sized, centrally located lumped mass. The walls will be warmer giving more comfort away from the (central) heat source.

    What the mass of the masonry will do is have an effect on the rate at which and how long it will take for the heat from a combustion process to get to the conditioned space. Which rate, BTW, is not as easily controlled in such lumped mass systems (if at all) as is possible by throttling or dichotomously controlling a combustion process without intervening thermal mass. Such placement of thermal mass between source and person can actually be a disadvantage.

    How much heat that eventually gets delivered to a dwelling space is independent of the thermal mass between the combustion process and the living space. The biggest and most noticeable effect of thermal mass is the time delay it introduces on the delivery of the heat. The length and nature of that delay is largely dependent on several factors, two or three of which are the thermal mass of the masonry, it's thermal conductivity and the shape and characteristics of the hot and cold surfaces of the thermal mass.

    Overall, central masonry systems have their place and advantage, especially (exclusively ?) for those folks who heat with wood, such as making it possible or at least easier to load or back a fire to be able to leave it unattended for long enough periods to maybe get a good night's sleep. But, they also have disadvantages, flexibility of heat output in terms of time and rate being among them.

    IMO, a lot of the perceived advantages come about (usually and quite erroneously in my view, FWIW) as a result of most folk's confusion about how the heat transfer process works, and also the confusion when equating thermal mass and thermal insulation, and the different ways they can work together and separately to heat and cool a living space.

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    • peakbagger
      Solar Fanatic
      • Jun 2010
      • 1562

      #17
      It may be regional but propane in the Northeast is unregulated. Get a cold snap and the price shoots sky high. Electric is regulated so its easier to plan. If you have large tank and can ride through propane price swings that may be the way to go.

      Of course the best thing to do is build the house to super energy efficient design like a Passivhaus or Pretty Good House. Design and build it right and the cost to heat and cool is minimal.

      Comment

      • J.P.M.
        Solar Fanatic
        • Aug 2013
        • 14926

        #18
        Originally posted by peakbagger
        It may be regional but propane in the Northeast is unregulated. Get a cold snap and the price shoots sky high. Electric is regulated so its easier to plan. If you have large tank and can ride through propane price swings that may be the way to go.

        Of course the best thing to do is build the house to super energy efficient design like a Passivhaus or Pretty Good House. Design and build it right and the cost to heat and cool is minimal.
        +1. Only comments on superinsulated design is that it does indeed save energy, but details are not well understood either by builders or potential owners, and designs need to be appropriate for the climate. What works well in NH, is mostly inappropriate for the desert, and vice versa.

        Somewhat similar to the way most of the uninformed who think off grid is a simple cake walk of throwing PV and batteries at an electric load, to successfully live in/with a truly superinsulated design takes some lifestyle adjustments most would be unwilling to undertake even if they were aware of what those adjustments are.

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        • jflorey2
          Solar Fanatic
          • Aug 2015
          • 2331

          #19
          Originally posted by Mike90250
          The stove computer controls the gas valve. The thermister controls the burn time of the fuel. Without the module working, the gas does not turn on. No gas present for the match to light. Like lawnmowers that turn themselves off when you let go the blade clutch....
          Right - which is easily solved with a piece of tape. Is there a similar solution available to you? (i.e. drive the valve directly)

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