Mandatory Renewables

[Sunking]

Given that cars are more powerful than ever

You just gave yourself away as a Millennial. You do not know what the 60/70's muscle cars were. Name like Super Bee, Charger, Shelby Mustang, Olds 442, Mustang Boss, GOAT, Chevelle SS, Nova, Barracuda, The Judge, and Road Runner.

[max2k]

Why are the levels of cleanliness required unrealistic? Given that cars are more powerful than ever, safer than ever, cleaner than ever, more efficient than ever, and cost about the same (in real dollars) of cars 30 years ago, it sounds like the standards are pretty realistic. They're certainly not crippling cars or making them unaffordable.

Right. Cars are checked pretty thoroughly when they are new, and from then on most smog check stations rely on OBD-II (or similar) diagnostics to ensure that the system is still working. Saves a lot of money that way.

Don't you think cars improved due to simple competition and not because of the government imposed 'standards'. BTW, smog stations don't rely on OBD and use gas probes to analyze the actual content of the exhaust which is a good thing. OBD does not have gas content data, it merely exposes certain points from engine management system.

OBD is an interesting example of things going wrong- there used to be 5 protocol flavors in the world for that: 1 for Asian cars, 1 for European and 3- for US made . 3 big US automakers (Ford, GM, Chrysler) couldn't agree on the common protocol standard and each implemented their own and incompatible one. Somehow Asian car makers didn't do that and all Toyotas, Nissans, Subarus, Hondas, Hyundais 'speak' the same protocol albeit different from any of 3 used by US makers.

[jflorey2]

You just gave yourself away as a Millennial. You do not know what the 60/70's muscle cars were. Name like Super Bee, Charger, Shelby Mustang, Olds 442, Mustang Boss, GOAT, Chevelle SS, Nova, Barracuda, The Judge, and Road Runner.

Average engine power in US cars in 1967 - 227hp
Average engine power in US cars in 2009 - 247hp

1968 Shelby Mustang, Police Interceptor version (biggest engine available) - 350hp
2017 Shelby GTE - 456hp

1969 Chevy Camaro ZL1 - 430hp
2016 Chevy Camaro ZL1 - 650hp

1970 Olds 442 - 370hp
Tesla P100D - 532hp

Google "horsepower-has-increased-112-since-1980-and-other-fun-facts" for more info.

[jflorey2]

Don't you think cars improved due to simple competition and not because of the government imposed 'standards'.

Power - yes, that was simple competition.

Efficiency - no, that was primarily CAFE. The car companies screamed bloody murder when the first CAFE rules came out, and claimed that CAFE requirements would bankrupt them and "would restrict the industry to producing subcompact size cars - or even smaller ones" - US cars would become "all sub-Pinto sized vehicles." This was in 1974, and I notice an awful lot of SUV's on the road.

Safety - no, that was primarily NTSB recommendations and DOT requirements.

Cleanliness - again no. And again the industry fought them tooth and nail. Ford claimed that if the "EPA does not suspend the catalytic converter rule, it will cause Ford to shut down." That was in 1972. Ford seems to still be around.

BTW, smog stations don't rely on OBD and use gas probes to analyze the actual content of the exhaust which is a good thing.

OK, they may do things differently in your neck of the woods. Down here the smog check on a modern car (when required) uses a scanner.

[SWFLA]

Most all of the late sixties and early seventies era muscle cars were underrated for insurance reasons. You really think a 426 Hemi only put out 425 horsepower? The ZL1 would dyno 550hp. Not to mention enough torque to slow the rotation of the Earth. Couple that with a modern 6-speed automatic transmission and the newer Tire compounds you'd be changing your shorts for sure. As far as Tesla goes that's only good for about 2 minutes before it goes into save myself mode. Not to take away from Modern American Muscle it's still quite impressive. and none of the oldie but goodies used forced induction.

[SWFLA]

The best deal in high octane gasoline is down at the air strip. they chuckle when I bring in the boat and fill it up with 100 low lead.

[max2k]

Power - yes, that was simple competition.

Efficiency - no, that was primarily CAFE. The car companies screamed bloody murder when the first CAFE rules came out, and claimed that CAFE requirements would bankrupt them and "would restrict the industry to producing subcompact size cars - or even smaller ones" - US cars would become "all sub-Pinto sized vehicles." This was in 1974, and I notice an awful lot of SUV's on the road.

Safety - no, that was primarily NTSB recommendations and DOT requirements.

Cleanliness - again no. And again the industry fought them tooth and nail. Ford claimed that if the "EPA does not suspend the catalytic converter rule, it will cause Ford to shut down." That was in 1972. Ford seems to still be around.


OK, they may do things differently in your neck of the woods. Down here the smog check on a modern car (when required) uses a scanner.

I'd argue efficiency rush was triggered by gas prices hikes so no government intervention was required. What you're referring to is politics and that is fascinating subject but all those improvements (except safety) were made possible by drastic change in design- instead of carburetor based cars car makers went with injection based ones which immediately made AFR control much more precise. That was quite a revolution in design IMO. Not sure government helped in any way. I used to own Nissan Maxima 1993 model and that car had practically all the attributes of the 'modern' car you keep referring to: injectors, per cylinder ignition coils, ECU, catalytic converter, EVAP, OBD, bunch of sensors previous models never had a need for like MAF, TPS, CPS etc. That car was passing smog checks just fine in 2013 due to engine management system design. In terms of safety I think Volvo was true leader in the area for decades and I don't think they were pushed by the government to come up with all their safety innovations.

My neck of the woods are California / US (present) and Ontario / Canada. In both cases smog stations stick gas probe into tailpipe and measure exhaust content. OBD does not have relevant data for the simple reason that cars don't have relevant sensors. No amount of scanning would produce what is missing. The station 'scans' OBD for the list of stored error codes, that's all they can possibly do. The error codes would look like: 0402 "O2 sensor slow response bank 1". I just made this DTC up, too lazy to look up the real one but the point is OBD does not have the data you think it does.

[sensij]

My neck of the woods are California / US (present) and Ontario / Canada. In both cases smog stations stick gas probe into tailpipe and measure exhaust content. OBD does not have relevant data for the simple reason that cars don't have relevant sensors. No amount of scanning would produce what is missing. The station 'scans' OBD for the list of stored error codes, that's all they can possibly do. The error codes would look like: 0402 "O2 sensor slow response bank 1". I just made this DTC up, too lazy to look up the real one but the point is OBD does not have the data you think it does.

From CA's smogcheck site:

Smog Check Program's Updated Test Technology


Californians getting Smog Checks today may notice that the traditional tailpipe test used for many years has been replaced by a quicker, computer-based test for gasoline-powered cars model-year 2000 and newer, and for most diesel vehicles that are model-year 1998 and newer.

This updated test uses the diagnostic capabilities of the vehicle's computer system instead of the traditional tailpipe probe to measure the vehicle's emissions. This On-Board Diagnostic (OBD) system gathers information and determines if the vehicle's emission control systems are operating properly. A visual inspection of emission control components is still required as well.

The OBD only method of testing vehicles is the result of 2010 legislation (AB 2289-Eng) which is designed to improve the Smog Check Program and further reduce air pollution. The Smog Check program removes hundreds of tons of smog-forming pollutants from California's air every day.

Gasoline-powered vehicles model-year 1999 and older will continue to receive Smog Checks using a tailpipe probe as well as the OBD test.

[max2k]

From CA's smogcheck site:

I'll be damned - they make it sound like OBD indirect data are 'good enough' to skip the tailpipe test. Hope this decision is based on proper statistics as using system outputs to validate its own health sounds like catch 22. Why don't they close this program altogether if the statistics says % of the polluting cars which can be detected with tailpipe test but missed with OBD is negligible to run those tests? I don't have statistics but I know of more than 1 case when 2000+ car was having problems leading to pollution among other things and no error codes were stored. That made it particular difficult to diagnose.

[jflorey2]

I'd argue efficiency rush was triggered by gas prices hikes so no government intervention was required. What you're referring to is politics and that is fascinating subject but all those improvements (except safety) were made possible by drastic change in design- instead of carburetor based cars car makers went with injection based ones which immediately made AFR control much more precise.

Right. But fuel injectors came about because CARB rules basically mandated* catalytic converters - and catalytic converters required very precise control of the fuel/air mixture, beyond what was achievable with a carburetor.

My neck of the woods are California / US (present) and Ontario / Canada. In both cases smog stations stick gas probe into tailpipe and measure exhaust content. OBD does not have relevant data for the simple reason that cars don't have relevant sensors.

They don't need them. If the system is still operating closed loop (which means that everything from the fuel injectors to the oxygen sensor is still working) AND there's no serious damage to the other parts of the system (i.e. the catalytic converter) then it's a relatively safe assumption that the car still meets emissions requirements. It's the closed-loop aspect that is important here; if the car is still maintaining its mixture correctly then the catalytic converter is receiving the mix of gases it needs to operate correctly, and odds are its emissions are still close to design parameters.

AB 2289 was the law that allowed OBDII-testing only in California for cars manufactured after 2000. Here's a blurb on it from smogtipsc.com:
===============
2000 model year and newer vehicles (except for vehicles 14,000 GVWR or greater) no longer require the tailpipe portion of the smog inspection.

Late model vehicles (along with diesel vehicles, 1998 & newer and which are 14,000 GVWR or under) will be administered the new On-Board Diagnostic (OBD) Inspection System (OIS) instead of having their exhaust emission analyzed while being driven on a dynamometer. The existing visual and functional test portions of the smog inspection will still apply.
===============

(* - the one exception was Honda's CVCC engine, which could achieve CARB levels without a catalytic converter.)

[Sunking]

The best deal in high octane gasoline is down at the air strip. they chuckle when I bring in the boat and fill it up with 100 low lead.

AV fuel is leaded. You know that right?

[Sunking]

Power - yes, that was simple competition.

Efficiency - no, that was primarily CAFE. The car companies screamed bloody murder when the first CAFE rules came out, and claimed that CAFE requirements would bankrupt them and "would restrict the industry to producing subcompact size cars - or even smaller ones" - US cars would become "all sub-Pinto sized vehicles." This was in 1974, and I notice an awful lot of SUV's on the road.

Safety - no, that was primarily NTSB recommendations and DOT requirements.

Cleanliness - again no. And again the industry fought them tooth and nail. Ford claimed that if the "EPA does not suspend the catalytic converter rule, it will cause Ford to shut down." That was in 1972. Ford seems to still be around.


OK, they may do things differently in your neck of the woods. Down here the smog check on a modern car (when required) uses a scanner.

Yes and all those requirements skyrocketed vehicle prices. Not many working class people can afford a brand new car today. Those that can and need a loan are upside down with 6 year car payments. Car loans use to be two years. My fist new car was less than $6000 for a Pontiac 1980 Firebird when I got out of the USN. In 1982 bought a brand new Chev 1500 Pick Up loaded for $5600. Today $30K. Now there is talk of forcing manufactures to make auto braking mandatory. All those implements cost big bucks. In the 70's you could get a good new Truck for less than $3000. Today you are looking at $30K. My first vehicle was a used Toyota PU I paid $1100, a 4 cylinder diesel, got almost 40 mpg and put 150,000 miles on it before it got caught in a flood.

[SWFLA]

AV fuel is leaded. You know that right?

Valves love lead, especially in a high performance engine. It's really more about the octane rating.

[SWFLA]

20 years ago I moved to California and had to go to a regular automotive repair shop to get smog tested. They didn't care that the air pump was removed. ( air injection reactor)
Didn't care that I had Hooker Headers. Passed the tailpipe sniff test with flying colors. And then told me I failed because I had two catalytic converters instead of one. Needless to say I moved to Catalina Island for a spell, and drove a golf cart, then got the hell out of Dodge and never looked back!

[Sunking]

Valves love lead, especially in a high performance engine. It's really more about the octane rating.

Just wanted to make sure you knew. Sad thing it is going away. New piston civilian aircraft burn diesel, errr I mean Jet A fuel. AV gas only has one supplier today and real expensive as I guess you know. Damn Employment Prevention Agency. Where I live at least we get real gasoline in octane up to 101.

If you talk to any small engine mechanic, you learn never ever use gasoline with ethanol. Honda, Stihl, and Echo even warn against using ethanol. Pure gas with 89 octane Even your vehicle engine will do much better without it.