Gauging interest in design for DIY - feedback wanted

[badutahboy]

First things first, if this is not allowed, or if I need to become a vendor to actually do this, please let me know! As of now, I'm only looking for interest in doing this as a side business.

I made a post a few days ago looking for a freelance designer that could design my system for optimal panel placement factoring in solar efficiency due to azimuth and shading. I didn't find anyone other than brightharvest doing this, and Brightharvest seems to be tied to specific regions for their info for shading.

I did find that Aurora offers this software. They are the company that many/most solar companies use for their design. However, the software isn't cheap, so it probably doesn't make sense to sign up for an account for your own individual system.

I am contemplating signing up for their software, and offering to do designs for users here who plan to install a DIY system. I'm curious how many folks here would see a value in it, and at what price point.

My initial inclination is to charge $200. This can include ideal layouts, production estimates, single line diagrams, roof measurement showing panel placement for site plans, etc.

My thinking on pricing is that it's better than the competition. Brightharvest charges $200 for their layout, without single line diagram or other items helpful to permitting. Renvu charges $229 for their single line diagram. This would cover both for the cost of either of these two items. It's also cheaper than signing up for Aurora yourself and going through the learning curve of using their software.

Any feedback?

[bcroe]

Are you planning to do roof mounts, and/or the much more flexible ground mounts? Are you taking
into account ways to deal with the local weather and clouds? Bruce Roe

[badutahboy]

Are you planning to do roof mounts, and/or the much more flexible ground mounts? Are you taking
into account ways to deal with the local weather and clouds? Bruce Roe

I'm assuming this is a question about my personal system and not the feedback on freelance design, so I'm going to answer it as such. Feel free to follow up if I missed your point.

I don't have space to do ground mounts, and my shading problems would be worse at ground level. In the future, I plan to move to a more rural location and get an acre or more of land. I'll definitely be planning a ground mounted (possibly even sun tracking) install when I get to that point.

As for local weather and clouds, I'm not sure what you mean, I'm planning on using solaredge/optimizers, so I'm accounting for production issues from clouds and partial shading to the best of my ability. As for weather, I have some large trees due south of my roofline, and probably won't get great production in the winter due to the lower angle of the sun regardless. Because of that, I haven't worried about snow removal, but I'll cross that bridge if weather dictates and my production justifies it. It shouldn't be an outrageous ordeal to resolve in my case, because it's a single story house, panels will be installed on only one face of the roof, and I'd have easy access with a ladder and plastic roof rake to most of my panels.

[bcroe]

Nothing to do with your personal system. I take that as a NO. Bruce Roe

[J.P.M.]

OP: Trying to be polite about this, looks to me like you're out of your depth and don't know what you don't know (yet). Anyone that can read can download a copy of "Solar Power Your Home for Dummies" and probably do better for themselves in a couple of hours than you can do for them.

[solar pete]

First things first, if this is not allowed, or if I need to become a vendor to actually do this, please let me know! As of now, I'm only looking for interest in doing this as a side business.

I made a post a few days ago looking for a freelance designer that could design my system for optimal panel placement factoring in solar efficiency due to azimuth and shading. I didn't find anyone other than brightharvest doing this, and Brightharvest seems to be tied to specific regions for their info for shading.

I did find that Aurora offers this software. They are the company that many/most solar companies use for their design. However, the software isn't cheap, so it probably doesn't make sense to sign up for an account for your own individual system.

I am contemplating signing up for their software, and offering to do designs for users here who plan to install a DIY system. I'm curious how many folks here would see a value in it, and at what price point.

My initial inclination is to charge $200. This can include ideal layouts, production estimates, single line diagrams, roof measurement showing panel placement for site plans, etc.

My thinking on pricing is that it's better than the competition. Brightharvest charges $200 for their layout, without single line diagram or other items helpful to permitting. Renvu charges $229 for their single line diagram. This would cover both for the cost of either of these two items. It's also cheaper than signing up for Aurora yourself and going through the learning curve of using their software.

Any feedback?

I think it may be harder than you think. I would think before you do anything you would need to be a qualified solar system designer, and you also have to deal with the different rules and regulations that can vary from county (city) to county. There is no uniform solar regulations that cover the entire USA so dealing with the different rules and regulations will be a massive pain.

[badutahboy]

OP: Trying to be polite about this, looks to me like you're out of your depth and don't know what you don't know (yet). Anyone that can read can download a copy of "Solar Power Your Home for Dummies" and probably do better for themselves in a couple of hours than you can do for them.

I don't profess to be the bastion of all knowledge in regard to solar power. I'm simply asking if there would be an interest in a solution that doesn't currently exist for DIYers. As for the questions Bcoe posed, all but the cloud cover are install specific, and the software accounts for cloudiness in it's irradiance maps. Additionally, ground vs roof mount and weather related maintenance are items DIYers should have covered (at least somewhat) before investing ANY sort of money into anything other than buying the book you referenced.

As for the comment about being able to invest a couple of hours into accomplishing what I'm offering, I doubt it. I'm talking about helping people automate the time consuming, expensive, had to DIY parts of designing your system. In order to accurately determine the impact of shading for a DIYer, you need a solar pathfinder, suneye, or equivalent tools, the knowledge of how to use them and how to calculate the hours of sunlight for each measurement site for the various times of the year, etc. I helped a friend with his system last year, and crunching those numbers took 3-4 hours on the roof and about 2 more in excel using a solar pathfinder.

Again, I'm not an expert in all things solar. I'm not an expert in ANY of the solar aspects. I'm simply gauging the interest in an automated resource to simplify the most time consuming aspects of a DIY install, using the exact same tools that most professional installers use (and generally pay someone $13/hour to handle). Based on what I've experienced, I know as much or more about solar than most of the salespeople, designers, and installers I've talked to. That's considerable, as I have a stack of bids 3" deep, and have spoken to system designers from at least 2/3 of the companies I've gotten bids from.

Finally, I'm not trying to present myself as an expert. And ultimately, neither are most of the people designing solar systems. They're employees who've been trained on the software to do so. The companies that do a site visit with a Suneye rely on the reports generated by Suneye's software to do the same thing that companies who use Aurora do.

All that said, anyone considering a DIY install should most certainly buy and read Solar Power Your Home for Dummies. It's a fantastic book, and while the actual difficulty of installing a system isn't notably harder than, say, finishing a basement, understanding the concepts behind solar power is something every DIYer should invest the time to learn.

[badutahboy]

Nothing to do with your personal system. I take that as a NO. Bruce Roe

In that case, here are your answers:

In regard to cloudiness, the software accounts for diffusion in their irradiance maps.
In regard to ground vs roof, that's a question for each owner. I can use the software to give them their best producing placement, whether it's on the ground or the roof.
In regard to dealing with local weather, that's entirely a homeowner issue. There's no way to account for production lost due to snow cover, but the Aurora software does account for average weather patterns in regard to the sun actually getting to your roof (or whatever is covering it).


If I'm missing your point, please feel free to explain what I'm missing.

[badutahboy]

I think it may be harder than you think. I would think before you do anything you would need to be a qualified solar system designer, and you also have to deal with the different rules and regulations that can vary from county (city) to county. There is no uniform solar regulations that cover the entire USA so dealing with the different rules and regulations will be a massive pain.

As you said, there's not any specific licensing required for Solar designers. I should definitely reconsider providing single line diagrams, as there are requirements for electrical schematics, and even though the software checks designs for errors, I'm not an electrical engineer or even an electrician, so that would definitely be a liability point. As for other code required items (such as setbacks from roof edges), those are items the homeowner would have to provide me for their municipality. In the end, I'm trying to provide a helpful aid to DIYer's, not a replacement for every ounce of work a contractor provides except the actual install. I'm looking at the places where I'm hitting stumbling blocks with my own system and wanting to make those things easier.

Outside of single line diagrams, the other items I can provide are informational, not technical. Anyone can draw a site plan, but most of us don't have the tools or know-how to do it more professionally than on plotting paper (which is perfectly acceptable by most municipalities). Irradiance calculations aren't required for permits. Irradiance and production estimates may be required to qualify for rebates in specific municipalities, and the software DOES account for those things. I may not be able to help meet their requirements, but if not, ultimately, you're no worse off than you would be otherwise, as NOBODY seems to be offering this kind of service to DIYers.

Thanks for your feedback though. You definitely gave me some food for thought.

[SunEagle]

As you said, there's not any specific licensing required for Solar designers. I should definitely reconsider providing single line diagrams, as there are requirements for electrical schematics, and even though the software checks designs for errors, I'm not an electrical engineer or even an electrician, so that would definitely be a liability point. As for other code required items (such as setbacks from roof edges), those are items the homeowner would have to provide me for their municipality. In the end, I'm trying to provide a helpful aid to DIYer's, not a replacement for every ounce of work a contractor provides except the actual install. I'm looking at the places where I'm hitting stumbling blocks with my own system and wanting to make those things easier.

Outside of single line diagrams, the other items I can provide are informational, not technical. Anyone can draw a site plan, but most of us don't have the tools or know-how to do it more professionally than on plotting paper (which is perfectly acceptable by most municipalities). Irradiance calculations aren't required for permits. Irradiance and production estimates may be required to qualify for rebates in specific municipalities, and the software DOES account for those things. I may not be able to help meet their requirements, but if not, ultimately, you're no worse off than you would be otherwise, as NOBODY seems to be offering this kind of service to DIYers.

Thanks for your feedback though. You definitely gave me some food for thought.

The problem with most people that want to DIY system is that they do not want to pay anyone for anything other than the materials.

So while I feel your offer to provide a service to help the DIY get their project moving forward is admirable, you will probably run into the wall of most not wanting to pay anyone so the DIYer can save as much as they think they can.

Of course as Solar Pete mentioned each county, city, state in the US have different rules and regulations to meet for an approved grid tie solar pv system. That can be daunting learning all of the ins and outs of the codes and requirements especially if they change, which most do. I wish you luck.

[sdold]

I installed my own system and can't think of anything you could do that I'd have paid for. It's not that I didn't want to pay anyone, I just didn't need to. "Optimal panel placement" was the south-most roof face, with fire setbacks, avoiding vents and chimney, etc. I had shading, but it was easy to predict where it would fall. Angle was determined by roof pitch. I was under the impression that PV Watts or some such site would predict output based on azimuth and tilt, which would be useful for optimizing a ground mount system. In other words I have to really dig to find a reason to pay someone for a service that does this.

[badutahboy]

The problem with most people that want to DIY system is that they do not want to pay anyone for anything other than the materials.

So while I feel your offer to provide a service to help the DIY get their project moving forward is admirable, you will probably run into the wall of most not wanting to pay anyone so the DIYer can save as much as they think they can.

Of course as Solar Pete mentioned each county, city, state in the US have different rules and regulations to meet for an approved grid tie solar pv system. That can be daunting learning all of the ins and outs of the codes and requirements especially if they change, which most do. I wish you luck.

You're absolutely right. That's exactly the camp I'm in. I want to buy my parts (including the single line diagram, which I can't do myself), and run with the install. However, I also want the best production I can get, and not everyone has an optimal south facing roof with no shading issues, which is why I started looking for someone to do a shade analysis for me. I figure a couple hundred bucks upfront could save me 10% on my system cost, resulting in instant payback.

Just as an example, in my personal situation, my house faces east/west. The front also faces about 10 degrees north. According to PVwatts, the east side of my roof would ideally generate about 10% better. However, I have a large tree in my back yard, as well as trees to the south of my house, so I want to push my panels to the center/north end of my house. On the back, the tree in the back yard may interfere with production if I push panels further north, but I'm not sure exactly how much (it defintely casts shade on the roof in the early morning, but not all day long).

Because of those issues, I want to do a full shading analysis. If I blow $200 and figure out that my intuition is correct (that I should just stick with putting them on the front, despite it's less ideal production), that's a minimal cost, but the upside is it could save me $1500+ AND allow me to put the panels on the back of the house, where they're out of sight. That's my motivation for heading down this rabbit hole in the first place.Ultimately, signing up for Aurora is cheaper than buying a solar pathfinder, and maybe $100 more than renting a Suneye. It also saves me all the time invested in taking the measurements and doing the math.

It's clearly not something EVERYONE needs to do. It's also not something many DIYers will want to do. IMO, that may be a bad move on their part. I see it as one more step to knowing you're building the right system, rather than just slapping panels on your house and hoping they produce as hoped. As good as the free tools available may be, they simply can't account for factors like shading (with the exception of SAM, which requires a PHD to understand).

All that said, I have the feeling you're right. The market for something like this is likely very small. I assumed that from the jump, and never planned on making a living at it. I figured it's more my way of giving back to the community, offsetting the cost of the software, and maybe making some beer money for my time.

[SunEagle]

You're absolutely right. That's exactly the camp I'm in. I want to buy my parts (including the single line diagram, which I can't do myself), and run with the install. However, I also want the best production I can get, and not everyone has an optimal south facing roof with no shading issues, which is why I started looking for someone to do a shade analysis for me. I figure a couple hundred bucks upfront could save me 10% on my system cost, resulting in instant payback.

Just as an example, in my personal situation, my house faces east/west. The front also faces about 10 degrees north. According to PVwatts, the east side of my roof would ideally generate about 10% better. However, I have a large tree in my back yard, as well as trees to the south of my house, so I want to push my panels to the center/north end of my house. On the back, the tree in the back yard may interfere with production if I push panels further north, but I'm not sure exactly how much (it defintely casts shade on the roof in the early morning, but not all day long).

Because of those issues, I want to do a full shading analysis. If I blow $200 and figure out that my intuition is correct (that I should just stick with putting them on the front, despite it's less ideal production), that's a minimal cost, but the upside is it could save me $1500+ AND allow me to put the panels on the back of the house, where they're out of sight. That's my motivation for heading down this rabbit hole in the first place.

It's clearly not something EVERYONE needs to do. It's also not something many DIYers will want to do. IMO, that may be a bad move on their part. I see it as one more step to knowing you're building the right system, rather than just slapping panels on your house and hoping they produce as hoped. As good as the free tools available may be, they simply can't account for factors like shading (with the exception of SAM, which requires a PHD to understand).

All that said, I have the feeling you're right. The market for something like this is likely very small. I assumed that from the jump, and never planned on making a living at it. I figured it's more my way of giving back to the community, offsetting the cost of the software, and maybe making some beer money for my time.

Again I feel that if you want to invest in the tools and time to start a "business" with the chance of it being a very small market for your service then that is something you have to decide. IMO I wouldn't leave your day job to start a new business along this avenue but if you can provide quality service to some people that helps you get beer money and that is enough for your then I would say go for it.

[badutahboy]

I installed my own system and can't think of anything you could do that I'd have paid for. It's not that I didn't want to pay anyone, I just didn't need to. "Optimal panel placement" was the south-most roof face, with fire setbacks, avoiding vents and chimney, etc. I had shading, but it was easy to predict where it would fall. Angle was determined by roof pitch. I was under the impression that PV Watts or some such site would predict output based on azimuth and tilt, which would be useful for optimizing a ground mount system. In other words I have to really dig to find a reason to pay someone for a service that does this.

It's definitely not a service everyone needs. I didn't think I did, until after I had spoken to about 10 different installers. Most wanted to put panels on the back of my house, which just seemed stupid to me. But I started watching the sun, and observed what it does through most of last summer and the winter, and there's at least a decent chance that they're not totally nuts. Putting panels on the back of my house would make my whole install "better", even though I have the same issues as you (shading and vents). The front would be much easier, but if I can save a bunch of cash, keep the panels out of sight, and reduce my payback time from 6 years to 4.5, it makes sense. Worst case scenario, I'm out $300ish for the cost of a month of Aurora, and add 2 months to my payback time.

Also, in regard to PVwatts, it predicts output based on azimuth and tilt, so it's useful for both ground and roof installs, but it can't account for shading, so it's an ideal number. I'm also not sure if their weather models take into account diffusion due to the average amount of cloudiness in your area, which I've been told Aurora does account for. PVwatts is an absolutely critical tool to beginning your system design, but if you have any issues that will prevent meeting their ideal numbers (namely shade), further research is merited.

[badutahboy]

Again I feel that if you want to invest in the tools and time to start a "business" with the chance of it being a very small market for your service then that is something you have to decide. IMO I wouldn't leave your day job to start a new business along this avenue but if you can provide quality service to some people that helps you get beer money and that is enough for your then I would say go for it.

Definitely understood. I have no intention or ambition of this becoming a full time gig. It would take a LOT of business to offset my primary income, and I have about 6 different side "jobs" that I do as a way of giving back to various communities I'm involved in. Combined, I might make $5,000 profit off of those side jobs in a given year. They allow me to give back to the community by playing to my skillset, give me some hobbies that usually don't cost me money, and pay for some of my own hobbies.

That's why I put out the feeler here. If I can help a few people out, even in the short term, it's win/win. If not, I'll probably knock out my own system and let my Aurora account expire after 1 month.