Grid scale storage within reach?

Collapse
X
 
  • Time
  • Show
Clear All
new posts
  • jflorey2
    Solar Fanatic
    • Aug 2015
    • 2331

    #31
    Originally posted by inetdog
    It was a little more complicated than that. Turning off the cooling system was survivable. What caused the massive excursion, as I recall, was turning it back on full force all at once when they realized they were in trouble.
    Sort of.

    The reactor itself had several serious design flaws. The three most serious were 1) a positive void coefficient 2) control rods tipped with graphite instead of boron and 3) a design that allowed prompt criticality. This meant that during any event where you saw a sudden increase in reactivity, causing water to boil more rapidly, reactor power went up rather than down. Further, any insertion of the rods from the fully withdrawn position initially increased reactivity rather than reducing it.

    The third flaw was by far the most serious. All US reactors are designed so that they cannot go prompt-critical (i.e. explode via a chain reaction like grade school diagrams of an atomic bomb depict.) Without a moderator they do nothing at all; there is not enough nuclear fuel in the core to sustain a nuclear reaction. Only when you add a moderator (like water) do you slow the neutrons down enough that they become reactive enough to sustain a nuclear reaction. Chernobyl was not designed like that; it COULD go prompt critical, and enter into a rapid runaway chain reaction similar to that in a nuclear weapon.

    Another factor was a factor common to most reactors - poisoning. During normal operation, isotopes of uranium decay to isotopes of iodine to isotopes of xenon. Xenon absorbs neutrons very strongly, and during normal operation, the xenon thus produced is almost immediately burned up, But at extended low power levels, the process is uranium -> iodine -> xenon and it stops there; xenon accumulates and can almost completely stop the reaction by absorbing all the neutrons. After a long enough period of low power operation, you could end up in a state where all the control rods are completely withdrawn but there's not enough reactivity for a chain reaction.

    The operator errors were equally as lengthy. They did not realize that they were poisoning the reactor by operating it at a low power level. They did not realize that the reactor had become unstable, even when they had to manually retract almost all the control rods to get the power level back to even 20% of nominal. They ignored dozens of alarms going off that indicated uneven neutron flux, uneven heating and general core instability. They then ran a test that gradually shut down the circulating pumps, resulting in lower flow rates and steam voids in the core.

    The last mistake they made was scramming the reactor as a means to shut it down. The control rods, most of which had been completely removed, began to re-enter the core. The tips, composed of graphite, entered first, increasing reactivity. The remaining water boiled off almost immediately, resulting in a prompt-critical chain reaction. The resulting nuclear explosion would have leveled hundreds of square miles if the core had remained together. Fortunately, the core almost immediately disintegrated. The last reading before the instruments were destroyed was that the core was producing 33 gigawatts of power. The resulting explosion completely dispersed the core and stopped the chain reaction.

    Comment

    • jflorey2
      Solar Fanatic
      • Aug 2015
      • 2331

      #32
      BTW the incident at Three Mile Island was instructive on how dumb you can really be with a US nuclear reactor and still not cause any deaths. In that case, there was a single mechanical failure - an automatic pilot operated relief valve (PORV) stuck open after a maintenance mistake caused the reactor to shut down automatically (mistake #1.) They didn't realize the valve was stuck open, and so never closed it manually (mistake #2.) The reactor's coolant started heating up. An automatic system started dumping water through a secondary heat exchanger to compensate. They shut it down (mistake #3.) The coolant continued to heat up. The emergency core cooling system then started up and started injecting coolant directly into the core. They shut down that system as well (mistake #4.)

      During this entire time, alarms were going off that were telling the operators that the core temperatures were too high and the pressures were too low, and separate alarms were telling them that the systems that were trying to prevent any problems had been manually shut down. End result - a damaged reactor, no significant release of radioactivity, no injuries and no deaths.

      These were two accidents that really underscored the difference in design between USSR and US reactors back in those days.

      Comment

      • DanKegel
        Banned
        • Sep 2014
        • 2093

        #33
        I'm not putting down nuclear power. The four incidents I mentioned were examples of how high the stakes are, and how easy it is to screw up.

        I'm sure that future designs can be made more foolproof. Nuclear power, like anything else, has a learning curve.

        It's just so dang expensive when you make a mistake, and as a result, so much care has to go into building them that schedule and cost are hard to bear. It's going to be a long, expensive slog up that learning curve.

        As for U.S. fatalities -- I think three men died restarting the SL-1 reactor in Idaho in 1961. Current designs are way, way better... but it's not quite accurate to say zero fatalities.

        Comment

        • SunEagle
          Super Moderator
          • Oct 2012
          • 15125

          #34
          Originally posted by DanKegel

          Oh, c'mon, you have to at least nod to the larger nuclear power plant failures, which are at the very least extremely expensive.
          Catastrophic events like Fukushima, Chernobyl, or Three Mile Island, or even just reactor failures like San Onofre, are large on peoples' minds.

          Fear of another Chernobyl is what led Europe to embrace solar and wind energy with such vigor.

          That said, I sure would like to keep some of our current plants online. Economics aren't working out for them at the moment, but maybe if there were a carbon tax, they'd be more competitive.
          Ahh. Fear. Yes it is the fear of a potential nuclear plant failure that has got even the CO2 group scared. Please go back and do the research to see exactly how many people have died due to a nuclear plant failure and then compare that number to the health problems caused by pollution.

          Sure there is always a chance of something happening like the 4 events you mentioned. But what about the hundreds of other nuclear generating plants that have no safety issue and have provided giga watt hours of power while not releasing any CO2 or causing any deaths.

          You look down at me when I hint that another large volcanic event will happen in our lifetime which will not only disrupt air travel but will greatly reduce the amount of sunlight getting to a lot of solar generating systems. You believe I am being a little too childish because of something that you feel won't happen again even though the world averages over 35 volcanic events per year and the number has been increasing significantly since the 1800's. What are you going to do when the solar farms can't generate even 10% of their ability. Who will be in the dark then?

          I am sorry but I do not fear nuclear power any more than I fear being hit by a bus. You on the other hand fear CO2 as well as a reputable power generation source that does not release any CO2. That is sort of a conflict in my mind.

          Comment

          • DanKegel
            Banned
            • Sep 2014
            • 2093

            #35
            Originally posted by SunEagle
            Ahh. Fear. Yes it is the fear of a potential nuclear plant failure that has got even the CO2 group scared.
            Yup. It's like, people are afraid of air travel, even though it's safer than travelling in an automobile, possibly because the failures are so much more spectacular and newsworthy, perhaps because in a car you have some control over your own destiny. I personally don't fear for my own safety from a nuclear power plant accident.

            Go back and read what I wrote earlier. You seem to think I'm against nuclear power; I'm not (well, I'm against shoddy plants, but we build good ones these days, right?). I do think it's expensive, though.

            As for large volcanic eruptions causing a volcanic winter -- sure, that risk has always existed, I haven't heard that it's increasing. We should plan for an extra winter now and then. But solar power is useful even in winter. And we should make sure solar farms and wind turbines are designed to not be damaged by volcanic ash.

            For that matter, we should also plan for Carrington events now and then.

            And we should make sure our nuclear reactors can safely shut down automatically when the grid fails, even when backup power fails. Any that can't withstand the things that led to past failures should be retrofitted if feasible, or put out to pasture.

            Comment

            • J.P.M.
              Solar Fanatic
              • Aug 2013
              • 14926

              #36
              Originally posted by DanKegel
              And we should make sure our nuclear reactors can safely shut down automatically when the grid fails, even when backup power fails. Any that can't withstand the things that led to past failures should be retrofitted if feasible, or put out to pasture.
              I believe what happens after a malfunction is called failure analysis. Been around for quite some time now. Ever been involved in such a thing ?

              Comment

              • DanKegel
                Banned
                • Sep 2014
                • 2093

                #37
                Originally posted by J.P.M.
                I believe what happens after a malfunction is called failure analysis. Been around for quite some time now. Ever been involved in such a thing ?
                Yeah. But note that there are many, many buildings out there that have not been retrofitted for quake safety; even when we know how to solve a problem, cost or political considerations delay actually solving it.

                So, have we learned, and are we applying, the lessons from the Fukushima accident? It's not black or white; we're applying at least some of them. Is it enough? I don't know.
                http://www.ucsusa.org/nuclear-power/...ican-fukushima is a look at the issues.

                Comment

                • SunEagle
                  Super Moderator
                  • Oct 2012
                  • 15125

                  #38
                  Originally posted by DanKegel

                  Yup. It's like, people are afraid of air travel, even though it's safer than travelling in an automobile, possibly because the failures are so much more spectacular and newsworthy, perhaps because in a car you have some control over your own destiny. I personally don't fear for my own safety from a nuclear power plant accident.

                  Go back and read what I wrote earlier. You seem to think I'm against nuclear power; I'm not (well, I'm against shoddy plants, but we build good ones these days, right?). I do think it's expensive, though.

                  As for large volcanic eruptions causing a volcanic winter -- sure, that risk has always existed, I haven't heard that it's increasing. We should plan for an extra winter now and then. But solar power is useful even in winter. And we should make sure solar farms and wind turbines are designed to not be damaged by volcanic ash.

                  For that matter, we should also plan for Carrington events now and then.

                  And we should make sure our nuclear reactors can safely shut down automatically when the grid fails, even when backup power fails. Any that can't withstand the things that led to past failures should be retrofitted if feasible, or put out to pasture.
                  You are correct I posted before I read yours concerning safer nuclear plants.

                  IMO the SMR (small modular reactor) has shown not only to be less expensive but much more safer then any of the GEN 1 or 2 type plants. If it wasn't for the fear of others those smaller plants would have been built and started to show a proven safety and reliability history. Unfortunately the US public is so wrapped up with a failure (even a remote one) they are similar to deer in the headlights. Frozen and scared.

                  While I certainly hope there isn't any large scale volcanic event there have been a few recently that have cause Europe to stop air traffic and see a reduction in sunlight. There have been at least 3 events since the 1600's that are classified as Little Ice Age (1650, 1770, 1850) where Europe could not get enough sunlight to grow crops.

                  I am not saying it can happen tomorrow or that it will affect the US but the volcano eruption does not have to be located in North America to block out sunlight in other parts of the world. Image a small country that relies heavily on solar to produce power and then have the panels covered in inches of dust. Not a pretty picture, Now image the South West US getting hit with tons of volcanic ash. That could reduce the power going to CA by a lot.
                  Last edited by SunEagle; 06-17-2016, 11:42 AM. Reason: spelling

                  Comment

                  • SunEagle
                    Super Moderator
                    • Oct 2012
                    • 15125

                    #39
                    Here is a graph of volcanic activity.

                    You do not have permission to view this gallery.
                    This gallery has 1 photos.

                    Comment

                    • J.P.M.
                      Solar Fanatic
                      • Aug 2013
                      • 14926

                      #40
                      Originally posted by SunEagle

                      Now image the South West US getting hit with tons of volcanic ash. That could reduce the power going to CA by a lot.
                      Volcanic activity can be a problem for all, but if the prevailing winds stay as usual, my guess might be that most irradiance blocking stuff would probably get dispersed somewhat evenly before it got to CA from the west.

                      Comment

                      • sensij
                        Solar Fanatic
                        • Sep 2014
                        • 5074

                        #41
                        Originally posted by SunEagle
                        Here is a graph of volcanic activity.
                        You have got to be kidding. An unattributed cherry-picked data set to support an otherwise unconventional assertion about the likelyhood of a geologic event destroying the world as we know it?

                        I found that the data come from the Smithsonian institute. They are based on reported observations of volcanic activity. Don't you think the tools (and human population) available to make those observations have gotten much better over the last few hundred years, increasing the frequency of the reports?

                        There is a significant difference between saying "volcanic activity is increasing" and "reported volcanic activity is increasing". I'd like to think you are using this to make a point about those who simplistically look at temperature data over time, but I think you might have been serious.
                        Last edited by sensij; 06-17-2016, 12:36 PM.
                        CS6P-260P/SE3000 - http://tiny.cc/ed5ozx

                        Comment

                        • DanKegel
                          Banned
                          • Sep 2014
                          • 2093

                          #42
                          Originally posted by SunEagle
                          image the South West US getting hit with tons of volcanic ash. That could reduce the power going to CA by a lot.
                          It just checked, and there are papers about volcanic activity possibly increasing when glaciers melt and relieve pressure on the continent, but that doesn't mean a volcanic winter is any more likely; those are caused by huge eruptions, and I haven't seen any evidence those are getting more likely.

                          I do think we should design our power infrastructure to survive some volcanic ash. https://volcanoes.usgs.gov/volcanic_ash/ has some case studies about how ash has affected power systems.
                          Have you seen any good studies on the situation? "Building Technologies for the Mitigation of Volcanic Risk: Vesuvius and Campi Flegrei" looks related.

                          That said, current levels of CO2 emissions are actively harming the climate, and we shouldn't stop working that problem while we consider volcano preparedness.

                          Comment

                          • SunEagle
                            Super Moderator
                            • Oct 2012
                            • 15125

                            #43
                            Originally posted by DanKegel

                            It just checked, and there are papers about volcanic activity possibly increasing when glaciers melt and relieve pressure on the continent, but that doesn't mean a volcanic winter is any more likely; those are caused by huge eruptions, and I haven't seen any evidence those are getting more likely.

                            I do think we should design our power infrastructure to survive some volcanic ash. https://volcanoes.usgs.gov/volcanic_ash/ has some case studies about how ash has affected power systems.
                            Have you seen any good studies on the situation? "Building Technologies for the Mitigation of Volcanic Risk: Vesuvius and Campi Flegrei" looks related.

                            That said, current levels of CO2 emissions are actively harming the climate, and we shouldn't stop working that problem while we consider volcano preparedness.
                            Increasing the number of ways we can generate power is important so that no single (or dual) source that can be disrupted is relied on too much. Any type of RE is currently affected by the weather and sun which makes it not secure enough to provide what we use daily on a 24/7 basis. Even the lack of rain has caused some hydro generating plants to reduce output.

                            Increasing the defenses of our infrastructure to withstand any type of natural (or human made) event is the right course of action. Some can take a while to complete others need to have a much faster pace before an event happens.

                            The problem is that some natural events happen very fast and without warning which makes it hard to respond to and mitigate. Disruption from; earthquakes, volcanic eruptions, tsunamis, tornadoes can be blocked to some extent but since most do not happen in a regular pattern people tend to forget the destructiveness that can happen when they do.

                            I totally agree with taking action that reduces the amount of toxic pollutants in our air and water along with finding better ways to generate power, conserve it and even store it. Maybe my priorities are different then yours or maybe they are different then the majority of those out there. But IMO there is an action plan somewhere in between that is the best path to take to secure our power generation and delivery system.

                            Comment

                            • SunEagle
                              Super Moderator
                              • Oct 2012
                              • 15125

                              #44
                              Originally posted by sensij

                              You have got to be kidding. An unattributed cherry-picked data set to support an otherwise unconventional assertion about the likelyhood of a geologic event destroying the world as we know it?

                              I found that the data come from the Smithsonian institute. They are based on reported observations of volcanic activity. Don't you think the tools (and human population) available to make those observations have gotten much better over the last few hundred years, increasing the frequency of the reports?

                              There is a significant difference between saying "volcanic activity is increasing" and "reported volcanic activity is increasing". I'd like to think you are using this to make a point about those who simplistically look at temperature data over time, but I think you might have been serious.
                              Yep. I have downloaded the data base of world wide volcanoes that have been witnessed or data discovered ages after the event. It is a big list and pretty interesting.

                              I also posted that graph to maybe highlight my feelings but also to show that while that data may be cherry picked I have seen similar data from the climate change folks that is also cherry picked but is still believed to be the gospel in what is happening. And I didn't say it would be a life ending event but it could be a major life disruption event.

                              It comes down to what you believe in and what you are afraid of.

                              I will say that doing any research on the Little Ice Age events while have different conclusions all seem to state that some contribution came from one or more volcanic events in the South Seas that affected Europe. Who is to say that there isn't one ready to go that while not dumping tons of ash on the South West may block enough sunlight to reduce solar production. Why would anyone rely on a single power source when there have been human and instrument observations showing that sunlight percentages can be affected by relatively little amount of crap that can get into our atmosphere.
                              Last edited by SunEagle; 06-17-2016, 01:03 PM.

                              Comment

                              • Raul
                                Solar Fanatic
                                • May 2015
                                • 258

                                #45
                                [QUOTE=SunEagle;n320271]


                                While I certainly hope there isn't any large scale volcanic event there have been a few recently that have cause Europe to stop air traffic and see a reduction in sunlight. There have been at least 3 events since the 1600's that are classified as Little Ice Age (1650, 1770, 1850) where Europe could not get enough sunlight to grow crops.



                                You 're right ,2-3 years ago Island volcano eruption had caused major disruption in air traffic and London Heathrow airport (largest in Europe ) had to ground all the flights for nearly 3 days . I live 6 miles from said airport and I remember that we had quite a bit of ash dust brought in by the sea wind into the land . Ireland got the most of it.


                                Comment

                                Working...