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Why are there no lead crystal battery distributors in the USA or Canada?

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  • Why are there no lead crystal battery distributors in the USA or Canada?

    This technology is very promising. The prices are cheaper than lithium and safer. I would love to buy these batteries locally in the US. Huge opportunity for someone. the biggest thing that attracts me to them is the -40C rating on them.

  • #2
    They are a *slight* variant of AGM. No magic here.

    They can be brought back from extreme levels of discharge, but the trick here is that no gear that you use will operate that far below 12v. In other words, who cares if it will operate at 8 volts without damage? Your gear won't be working, or working well. So don't be swayed by fancy charts and comparisons solely to flooded batteries. Rarely will you see them compared to their kin - a standard lead-calcium agm.

    A dead-giveaway from the sales brochures tend to hide the fact that they are indeed agm for the most part for the uninformed consumer, and pretend like this is some sort of new technology. Yawn.

    If you compare them to good quality lead-calcium agm's, that ability to go super deep discharge means nothing when your gear won't run anyway and standard agm's work just fine, and are much easier to obtain.

    For the totally ignorant who just kill batteries with total neglect, they might be just the ticket. But to purchased them on a total neglect basis - forget it.

    Lead crystal hype is brought up from time to time. Will it work? Sure. Is it somehow "better". Not really in *real world* usage.

    Oh, here we go from 2012:
    http://www.solarpaneltalk.com/showth...t=lead+crystal

    Heh, I don't know where you are getting your info from, but of course they had to throw in the yellow-journalism of being "safer", than lithium. Apparently they are not aware that like lead-acid, there are variants in basic chemistry, like flooded, agm, and the hyped agm-crystal. With lithium, we use Lifepo4 for solar use, and not laptop-type lithium chemistries unless you really know what you are doing, and in that case you know the dangers and engineer it safely to start with.

    Since lead-crystal is an AGM, it is as safe as an AGM, nothing more. I love how the lead-crystal guys seem to intentionally leave out the fact that they are AGM'S and their charts and comparisons are solely against flooded batteries - usually SLI to boot.

    Any product that touts "safer than lithium" is a red-flag that they are generalizing, desperate to create sales from uninformed fear tactics.

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    • #3
      You are joking right. It is a AGM battery with absolutely no track record. As PN says who cares if you can go down to 1 vpc, nothing will work. With a AGM or any standard lead acid battery all the capacity is available and usable to 1.75 vpc. Your equipment is designed to work to 10.50 volts on a 12 volt system or 1.75vpc. If you used a Lead Crystal battery your equipment shuts off at 1.75 vpc leaving 60% capacity unusable that you cannot access. It would take a 300 AH lead crystal battery to equal a 100 AH Lead acid battery or a 60 AH lithium.

      There goes your theory of cheaper and longer cycle life out the window with the rest of the fairly-tales you have been told. So the reason you cannot buy them in the USA is distributors and manufactures know this and would not be caught dead with them as it would ruin their reputations and credibility.

      Lead Crystal batteries are nothing new, especially here. [B]They have been around since 1859[/B]. You are 156 years too late bringing it to us. Your news is our history.
      MSEE, PE

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      • #4
        AGM batteries are rated for only -18C. So for remote off grid solar applications what does one do. Run heat cable full time around batteries in the cold winter months. Take that wattage into consideration when designing the system...ok I guess that's possible. The lead crystal advertise there batteries at -40C. Alot of people in Canada could use these.

        I know led lighting will work at 8vDC just be a bit dimmer than 12vDC. and that's all I'm interested in using them for. I'm not interested in running them down to nothing like both you keep stating. I don't mind running them to 50% discharge. The depth of discharge to life cycles blows away and deep cycle AGM (according to the manufacture)

        I have 8 on order from the UK to do some testing. Maybe I'll send you guys one cause you are the guru's and can do your own testing.

        I think if you use them to a max 50% DOD. There double the costs of deep cycle AGM but preform 3x's as much. I got the price sheet from the manufacture and even a 1-10 qty it isn't that terrible.


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        • #5
          Oh, here we go from 2012:
          http://www.solarpaneltalk.com/showth...t=lead+crystal

          Just went through the old thread and everyone that used them loved them, lol. Thanks.

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          • #6
            Originally posted by Solar Sign View Post
            I know led lighting will work at 8vDC just be a bit dimmer than 12vDC. and that's all I'm interested in using them for. I'm not interested in running them down to nothing like both you keep stating. I don't mind running them to 50% discharge. The depth of discharge to life cycles blows away and deep cycle AGM (according to the manufacture)
            Ah, I knew there was a pitch in there somewhere. LED lighting that can go very dim. In the real world, we are dealing with dc/ac inverters that on the 12v side of things, shut down at 10.5v anyway! So that deep discharge means nothing. Most direct-connected dc gear doesn't like to work more than + / - 15% of the stated voltage either, so there you go.

            I have 8 on order from the UK to do some testing. Maybe I'll send you guys one cause you are the guru's and can do your own testing.
            Not interested really as the capabilities of lead-crystal are a solution in search of a problem.

            That chart is EXACTLY what I'm talking about! Deceptive to the normal consumer and vague for those who know the differences and ask themselves "yes, but under WHAT conditions?" What is their measuring methodology? What brands and models are they using for those comparisons?

            Environmental impact - total joke. If you throw either a flooded or lead-crystal into the dump illegally, that's a lot of lead no matter what. Recycle it properly - easy to do.

            Not a single mention of IR, or internal-resistance either. I'd like to see some values - if you trust their measuring methodology.

            Like I said - they WILL work - just treat them like a standard agm. I guess if you are interested in discharging them down to dimly-lit christmas light decoration voltages they will do fine. Not a big sales demographic for that application.

            It is also a sign of the past taking them down to 80% DOD, which we never go to! 50% max. In the olden days of when agm first came out, going 80% was often touted and the world quickly learned that 50% was the REAL normal maximum. BUT now that LiFePo4 CAN go to 80% dod in a normal configuration, battery manufacturers may try to revive this comparison for kids that weren't around since the 70's. Once again, the ability to operate at very low voltages doesn't play well with real-world applications that will quit long beforehand.

            One also has to ask themselves from a business side of things - why haven't other major manufacturer's picked this up since it wasn't created yesterday? It has been around. Could it be due to restrictive or prohibitively expensive licensing structures if it is that great? I'm sure nobody is going to let lead-crystal go free to any other manufacturer gratis. Why is there no competition?

            Thing is, we can bench-race specs all day long, and try to create some sort of "buzz" about lead-crystal. Go ahead - so far it hasn't tipped the scales into any major adoption. But now that LFP has come along, it is the new target for the buzz comparisons. Here, the chart gets it totally wrong, not knowing the difference between the various lithium chemistries (LFP vs LiNmc, LiCo02 etc) and lumps it all into one column of generalizations.

            Too little too late my friend.

            Comment


            • #7
              Originally posted by Solar Sign View Post
              AGM batteries are rated for only -18C. So for remote off grid solar applications what does one do. Run heat cable full time around batteries in the cold winter months. Take that wattage into consideration when designing the system...ok I guess that's possible. The lead crystal advertise there batteries at -40C. Alot of people in Canada could use these.

              I know led lighting will work at 8vDC just be a bit dimmer than 12vDC. and that's all I'm interested in using them for. I'm not interested in running them down to nothing like both you keep stating. I don't mind running them to 50% discharge. The depth of discharge to life cycles blows away and deep cycle AGM (according to the manufacture)

              I have 8 on order from the UK to do some testing. Maybe I'll send you guys one cause you are the guru's and can do your own testing.

              I think if you use them to a max 50% DOD. There double the costs of deep cycle AGM but preform 3x's as much. I got the price sheet from the manufacture and even a 1-10 qty it isn't that terrible.


              Complete rubbish. AGM are rated down to -60F aka -50C. You are falling into the manufacture's trap using your ignorance against you. You want to believe so bad you ignore facts.
              MSEE, PE

              Comment


              • #8
                Originally posted by Sunking View Post
                Complete rubbish. AGM are rated down to -60F aka -50C. You are falling into the manufacture's trap using your ignorance against you. You want to believe so bad you ignore facts.
                Figures often beguile me, particularly when I have the arranging of them myself; in which case the remark attributed to Disraeli would often apply with justice and force: "There are three kinds of lies: lies, damned lies and statistics." [I] - Mark Twain's Own Autobiography: The Chapters from the North American Review[/I]

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                • #9
                  This company is totally dishonest , where I work we build remote solar operated equipment all over northwestern Canada
                  and -40 or colder temps happens every winter , we have used a half a dozen different makes of AGM batteries with no problems.

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                  • #10
                    Have you guys heard of Green Rhino?
                    Tech seems interesting but im a novice. Might be strictly marketing?

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