New guy dealing with county building inspectors

[inetdog]

Our POCO requires a licensed contractor for solar even though the local building depts allow a homeowner to do their own electrical....

And since POCO controls the interconnect agreement they are free to do that.
It is also possible that an AHJ might be doing you a favor and also telling you what the POCO requirements will be at the time you ask for the permit.

[foo1bar]

I understand what you are trying to say, but in the real world it is lip service. The drawings, calculations, method of work are all hoops the HO cannot likely jump through. Example in Chicago all electrical wiring must be installed in a approved raceway aka EMT.

No, it's not lip service.
Yes, the HO needs to meet the same requirements as a contractor.
EMT is IMO a good example. I know Chicago-area homeowners deal with it when they're doing DIY work - it's a little more work than doing NM - but it's quite doable by homeowners (I've seen DIY work done in Chicago suburb)

Very few if any HO's can meet those requirements.

I'd agree it's probably less than 10%.
But implying there aren't any is obviously just wrong.
Across the US there are many many DIY'ers who do their own electrical work.

Bet you a dollar the OP lives in a Democrat controlled community with strong Union membership.

Well, that's a fairly safe bet - I'd guess >80% of the northern CA population is in a Democratic county.
Here's which counties are Democrat vs. Republican: http://www.ppic.org/main/publication_quick.asp?i=1007
And Figure 3 on that page is with it scaled by population. (Seeing that, I think maybe it's actually >90%)

But to address your implication that the AHJ is being difficult because it's in a union / democrat area. It seems unlikely that's the case. I live in a county/city that's heavily democratic and I believe many of the electrical contractors are union (I know at least one of the larger shops that works on office buildings construction is). And I had no problem getting a permit as a homeowner.

Just look in big bold letters is STOP. They are warning you to not even try. Do so at you rown risk because in the end it will cost you more in money and cash than to hire someone. Yep the city told the building dept to allow it, and the building department said FU, we will make it impossible for Joe HO.

You're intentionally misreading the papers. The papers are intended so that the unsuspecting HO doesn't get screwed by an unscrupulous, unlicensed "contractor". The point of that paperwork is that they have seen people who are told by the "contractor" to go apply for the permit, then the "contractor" will do the work. And that causes problems for the HO when the work isn't up to code. The "contractor" is suddenly unreachable, there's no bond for the HO to make a claim against to get it fixed right.

[foo1bar]

By law Owner-builders may be allowed to "apply" for a permit but that doesn't mean they can always provide "all" of the required documentation to "receive" that permit.

IMO they're going to be as able to do it as most of the solar installation contractors around. About the only thing a HO can't do themselves is stamped drawings. But I'd bet 90% of the solar installers can't do that in-house either - they'll hire someone to do that.

Putting up a solar pv system can be a little more complicated then putting up a shed in your backyard or even adding a room onto the home.

Actually, I'd say some solar systems (ex. Enphase microinverters) are very close in complexity to adding a room onto a house.

The complexity is different types (ex. proper foundation, headers, floor joists, fastening the roof to the original house's wall, flashing roof-wall joint, window installation, etc. vs. grounding rails/modules, 120% of bus rule, etc)
They both are significant construction projects that are possible but unusual for someone to attempt as a DIY job.

It would be nice if the experienced home owner was able to perform a DIY installation

And fortunately in most places the experienced HO *IS* able to do a DIY installation.

Apparently Florida is an exception (Not that it's really relevant - but since there were claims that it's because of democrats that the OP may be having problems, I'll point out that the state senate, house, and governor in FL are republican.)

[SunEagle]

IMO they're going to be as able to do it as most of the solar installation contractors around. About the only thing a HO can't do themselves is stamped drawings. But I'd bet 90% of the solar installers can't do that in-house either - they'll hire someone to do that.



Actually, I'd say some solar systems (ex. Enphase microinverters) are very close in complexity to adding a room onto a house.

The complexity is different types (ex. proper foundation, headers, floor joists, fastening the roof to the original house's wall, flashing roof-wall joint, window installation, etc. vs. grounding rails/modules, 120% of bus rule, etc)
They both are significant construction projects that are possible but unusual for someone to attempt as a DIY job.


And fortunately in most places the experienced HO *IS* able to do a DIY installation.

Apparently Florida is an exception (Not that it's really relevant - but since there were claims that it's because of democrats that the OP may be having problems, I'll point out that the state senate, house, and governor in FL are republican.)

The reason for the Florida restrictions probably does come down to politics but IMO it doesn't really matter which side (D or R) caused it. Both sides have their own agenda.

Regardless of what my state's restrictions are I am hoping the OP is able to find a way to get his work completed and approved.

[Solar Sign]

In Northern California,

Home owner trying to obtain permits in my own name for use on my property.

Feel I am qualified, 35 years working with electricity most every day.

John

Honestly they will need to do a final inspection if you pulled a permit. So if your not NEC compliant then you will get a corrections list. As long as you get it finaled then that's all they should care about.

I would hire a PV consultant, review all the work, you do the install if your up to it.

[Solar Sign]

Our POCO requires a licensed contractor for solar even though the local building depts allow a homeowner to do their own electrical....

then you hire an solar installer or an electrician at a discount rate and work with him on the install.

In the sign business we will do installs out of state all the time and we have to hire 1 guy from a local sign company at times to be onsite to satisfy the local jurisdiction. Sometimes they just sit in there truck watching.

[Tigerloose]

2014 CEC
690.1 Scope.
The provisions of this article apply to solar photovoltaic
(PV) electrical energy systems, including the array
circuit(s), inverter(s), and controller(s) for such systems.

690.4 Installation.
(A) Photovoltaic Systems.
(E) Wiring and Connections. The equipment and
systems in 690.4(A) through (D) and all associated wiring
and interconnections shall be installed only by qualified
persons.

Article 100 Definition:
Qualified Person. One who has skills and knowledge
related to the construction and operation of the electrical
equipment and installations and has received safety
training to recognize and avoid the hazards involved.

There's not all that much complexity about a roof mounted solar array. When you purchase the equipment be sure to ask for the installation instructions. They may give you a bare bones few pages so try the internet site for the racking manufacturer. Do the same for the inverter or micro inverters, optomizers, disconnects etc. As far as the jurisdiction and their lack of support, chances are that you will know as much as they do by the time you get done with the project. At the end of the day, they can't keep you from getting a permit.

A few things to watch out for are:
Every bit of the hardware will have a torque value assigned to it, use a torque wrench. Plastic wire ties are no good, use rubber coated stainless steel wire ties. J-boxes will be type 3R but the splices will still need to be Listed for a wet location. Keep bare copper away from aluminum as it will degrade the aluminum. Use a quality roof attachment like Quick Mount. Make sure that the PV wire is clipped or tied securely with no sags. Make sure that the modules that you buy have been Listed or Classified with the racking system. For that matter, make sure that the racking system has been Listed or Classified.

[CessnaTPA]

I'm in Florida wanting to install a 14kw grid tied rooftop solar system on my home and got my first taste of the red tape of getting my project permitted.
IMO I have created very thorough and detailed prints and went down to the county office and had the plans reviewer look it over. He quickly thumbed through it and stopped when he saw the IronRidge certification PE stamp, rubbed his finger over it and said this is a copy, I need an original and was pretty much done with me. Called IronRidge and they acted like I was the first one to ever request a wet stamped copy which they nicely said they can't supply. Do you think they are harassing me or is this common practice not to accept a copy?

After reading this post I wonder if this is just the beginning of the permitting nightmare.
Not to sound arrogant but I have 25 years experience as a industrial electrician and feel confident I can install this system myself.

[ButchDeal]

I'm in Florida wanting to install a 14kw grid tied rooftop solar system on my home and got my first taste of the red tape of getting my project permitted.
IMO I have created very thorough and detailed prints and went down to the county office and had the plans reviewer look it over. He quickly thumbed through it and stopped when he saw the IronRidge certification PE stamp, rubbed his finger over it and said this is a copy, I need an original and was pretty much done with me. Called IronRidge and they acted like I was the first one to ever request a wet stamped copy which they nicely said they can't supply. Do you think they are harassing me or is this common practice not to accept a copy?

After reading this post I wonder if this is just the beginning of the permitting nightmare.
Not to sound arrogant but I have 25 years experience as a industrial electrician and feel confident I can install this system myself.

Ironridge has preapproved designes for many areas but,a few areas require a stamp. There are some online sites that can do this. This is uusally in specific areas like hurricane probe areas that want to be sure it is designed for their specific local. These areas usually are more

[J.P.M.]

I'm in Florida wanting to install a 14kw grid tied rooftop solar system on my home and got my first taste of the red tape of getting my project permitted.
IMO I have created very thorough and detailed prints and went down to the county office and had the plans reviewer look it over. He quickly thumbed through it and stopped when he saw the IronRidge certification PE stamp, rubbed his finger over it and said this is a copy, I need an original and was pretty much done with me. Called IronRidge and they acted like I was the first one to ever request a wet stamped copy which they nicely said they can't supply. Do you think they are harassing me or is this common practice not to accept a copy?

After reading this post I wonder if this is just the beginning of the permitting nightmare.
Not to sound arrogant but I have 25 years experience as a industrial electrician and feel confident I can install this system myself.

After dealing with Q.C. and regulatory agencies for an engineering career, I've continually found the truth in the two rules with respect to dealing with inspectors:

1.) The inspector is always right.

2.) If the inspector is wrong, see rule #1.

Still, if you think you've been wronged, I'd start climbing up the chain of command. But before I did, I'd review/study up on what the local codes say to help make an informed case. Then, go back to the AHJ, maybe even the same person who gave your the bum's rush the first time, and ask for their help in your most professional manner, neither sucking up or coming off as a troublemaker. Communication is the key. Sometimes that communication needs to stress the other side's importance in getting your project completed.

Maybe they saw some shortcomings in your first submission besides the lack of wet stamping. Or, maybe the person you dealt with is new/someone's otherwise unemployable brother-in-law who's a dope. Whatever. The reasons don't matter. See rule #1 above.

Reality is, and bottom line, like it or not, they have the whip hand, and that's the hand you've been dealt. Not suggesting your do or don't have one, but folks who cop an attitude with the AHJ often and usually don't have results as good as those who let the powers that be know they are performing a service - one that you would like their help in using to have a safe and successful project. That's not fawning or sucking up - and not defending them either- just recognizing they can be a real source of correct information and help, or your worst nightmare.

The choice is largely yours and how you handle the situation. More reality: Piss people off and you'll mostly self generate the nightmare you fear.

Keep the end goal in mind. Do you want PV, or let your pride piss people off ? Pride's a good thing, but in some situations it's best kept in your back pocket, at least until you get a signoff.

Take what you want of the above. Scrap the rest.

[SunEagle]

I'm in Florida wanting to install a 14kw grid tied rooftop solar system on my home and got my first taste of the red tape of getting my project permitted.
IMO I have created very thorough and detailed prints and went down to the county office and had the plans reviewer look it over. He quickly thumbed through it and stopped when he saw the IronRidge certification PE stamp, rubbed his finger over it and said this is a copy, I need an original and was pretty much done with me. Called IronRidge and they acted like I was the first one to ever request a wet stamped copy which they nicely said they can't supply. Do you think they are harassing me or is this common practice not to accept a copy?

After reading this post I wonder if this is just the beginning of the permitting nightmare.
Not to sound arrogant but I have 25 years experience as a industrial electrician and feel confident I can install this system myself.

I live in Hernando County, Fl. East of Brooksville. I plan on a ground mount sometime in the future. Which county are you in?

[CessnaTPA]

After dealing with Q.C. and regulatory agencies for an engineering career, I've continually found the truth in the two rules with respect to dealing with inspectors:

1.) The inspector is always right.

2.) If the inspector is wrong, see rule #1.

Still, if you think you've been wronged, I'd start climbing up the chain of command. But before I did, I'd review/study up on what the local codes say to help make an informed case. Then, go back to the AHJ, maybe even the same person who gave your the bum's rush the first time, and ask for their help in your most professional manner, neither sucking up or coming off as a troublemaker. Communication is the key. Sometimes that communication needs to stress the other side's importance in getting your project completed.

Maybe they saw some shortcomings in your first submission besides the lack of wet stamping. Or, maybe the person you dealt with is new/someone's otherwise unemployable brother-in-law who's a dope. Whatever. The reasons don't matter. See rule #1 above.

Reality is, and bottom line, like it or not, they have the whip hand, and that's the hand you've been dealt. Not suggesting your do or don't have one, but folks who cop an attitude with the AHJ often and usually don't have results as good as those who let the powers that be know they are performing a service - one that you would like their help in using to have a safe and successful project. That's not fawning or sucking up - and not defending them either- just recognizing they can be a real source of correct information and help, or your worst nightmare.

The choice is largely yours and how you handle the situation. More reality: Piss people off and you'll mostly self generate the nightmare you fear.

Keep the end goal in mind. Do you want PV, or let your pride piss people off ? Pride's a good thing, but in some situations it's best kept in your back pocket, at least until you get a signoff.

Take what you want of the above. Scrap the rest.

Good advice and know & agree you are waisting your time to argue with anything they say, just smile and say thank you. If you give them any attitude they can make you regret it.
I've contacted a local solar PE guy who says he can help me. Hopefully it will be painless the next time I go in.

[CessnaTPA]

I live in Hernando County, Fl. East of Brooksville. I plan on a ground mount sometime in the future. Which county are you in?

Hillsborough

[J.P.M.]

Good advice and know & agree you are waisting your time to argue with anything they say, just smile and say thank you. If you give them any attitude they can make you regret it.
I've contacted a local solar PE guy who says he can help me. Hopefully it will be painless the next time I go in.

Just my opinion. How good it is as advice will only show up in the results. FWIW, I wouldn't pay for any engineering services until I got the design/calcs./drawings all signed off by the AHJ. Just sayin'. Lots of folks say they can help. I'd pay for results more than promises.

[SunEagle]

Hillsborough

TPA. Got it.