Heat tape on the back of the panel to melt snow?

[osirisstevens]

They've been working and Kansas City Colorado Minnesota and New York state with no problems stated in the above blog. We actually have seen increases in the summer due to a special patented backing. As for reactive power micro inverters they are mostly for the grid not a stand alone system. We also have seen it work on 360 watt panels 72 cell. The smaller the panel the larger the battery need or you'll need another system. The panel itself really only needs to get up to 32 degrees. Everything film that I've tried has never been able to do what nano carbon particles can do.

[osirisstevens]

One more thing that panel warming system has melted 5 lb per square foot of ice on solar panels that are fixed or flexible thin film. It melts in about 3 hours at minus 3 degrees Fahrenheit. Again you need to only get the panel to be 32 to 39 degrees above freezing and that will melt the ice. If you leave it on in a snowstorm before it starts no snow or ice will ever collect on a solar panel.

[J.P.M.]

Hello to everyone that needs snow melted from their solar panels during the winter months.
There is a company in Colorado that sells kits for snowmelt, [redacted]. They have a patented partner with an electro plastic that uses carbon nanoparticles to heat the solar panels.

It can be installed on any size solar panel and can adhere to a solar panel in 10 seconds. They are not a thin film heat tape/copper wire, heat tape of any kind, gas heated in any way, magnetically heated through four magnets that rub each other to create heat, heated hot water or liquid jell boiled in any way.

Their website is [redacted] and they do much more than just solar panel heating systems. They have micro-inverters that work with reactive power on demand 24 hours a day to give you a stronger power output from your solar array. They have racking systems, solar panels, carports, solar walkways, water creation from humidity, greenhouses, solar panels for greenhouses that grow food 40% faster than a regular greenhouse and use 5-70% less water for that growth, mobile greenhouses, and have three different types of DERM systems.

Mod Note: This is on the border between supplying information and advertising. I have made the URL information unclickable as a first step while we decide whether to allow the post or not.
ModNote2: The poster is a principal of the company involved. That makes it an attempt to get free advertising. Company link removed completely.

Until more information is forthcoming, this looks like a SCAM.

[J.P.M.]

Generally, the panels will heat up even with snow, and self-shed in a day. But maybe it's too cold. How hot does the tape get ? I wonder if putting it on the alum frame would be enough, I'd be very careful about applying heat to the backside sealing layer..

What about windshield de-icer ? Or a good coat of wax before snow season ? This is the first I've heard of panels not clearing. Maybe a sheet of styrofoam cut to fit backside to retain heat, and allow to thaw. Remove before warm weather.

FWIW, windshield deicer will probably change the ARC characteristics of the glazing. that will impair performance by some unknown amount for an unknown length of time. It might also void a warranty claim.

[J.P.M.]

a problem in making these comparisons is that it is fairly easy to measure the heat needed to melt a particular amount of ice or snow when the ambient temperature around the panel is very close to freezing. At any significantly colder temperature some input heat to the panel will be lost to the environment (particularly at the back of the panel) without having any effect on the snow on the front of the panel. Without specifying the ambient temperature, wind conditions, and maybe even the design of the panel, the number of watts per square foot needed to melt snow is a meaningless number.
In addition, there is a possibility that the panelwarmer system gets better performance by insulating the back of the panel to some extent when operating. But this would be counterproductive during the summer when you want to reject heat as fast as possible from the rear of the panel to minimize reduced power output as the panel temperature increases.

fwiw, +1.

[J.P.M.]

This problem sure seems to have stumped the great minds here...

Not at all. In the manner Inetdog writes, the situation is easy to define for those knowledgeable in the analysis of such situations. It's just that the practical solutions tried so far are not suitable to day/day application.

[J.P.M.]

One more thing that panel warming system has melted 5 lb per square foot of ice on solar panels that are fixed or flexible thin film. It melts in about 3 hours at minus 3 degrees Fahrenheit. Again you need to only get the panel to be 32 to 39 degrees above freezing and that will melt the ice. If you leave it on in a snowstorm before it starts no snow or ice will ever collect on a solar panel.

Well, one more thing on your free advertising /scam odyssey: I suppose you can supply some independent testing to substantiate that ? Until then, and without a lot more info about how this stuff doesn't/won't/can't void claims,it's still a B.S. scam.

[azdave]

Well, one more thing on your free advertising /scam odyssey: I suppose you can supply some independent testing to substantiate that ? Until then, and without a lot more info about how this stuff doesn't/won't/can't void claims,it's still a B.S. scam.

I have no need for snow removal so I'm not digging deeper into the claims but this poster promoting panel warming is using his real name here and you can easily find him and his company if you Google it. I'm not going to post the company name or link. He of course is out to sell something so abundant caution is advised.

[J.P.M.]

I have no need for snow removal so I'm not digging deeper into the claims but this poster promoting panel warming is using his real name here and you can easily find him and his company if you Google it. I'm not going to post the company name or link. He of course is out to sell something so abundant caution is advised.

Found it, and it looks more like a scam than ever. Looks to me like some resistance heating elements with what looks like some type of foil wrap covering for the backside of the panel(s) all somehow affixed with what they call double faced tape.
-The device looks like it effectively adds an insulating layer to the backside of any panel.
- So, during times of no icing, the device will cause panels to operate at higher temps. SWAG it would add ~ 5-10 C to temp. difference between ambient air and cell and so raise the cell temp. by the same amount.
- I'd therefore conclude the device is not desirable to have attached to a panel when the panel is not ice/snow covered, and so, to avoid the penalty from unwanted cell temp. elevation, at least biannual attachment/removal will be done, the question becomes: How does one manage to attach and remove such a system from most any array ?
- I'd assume the double faced tape they're referring to (like the double faced carpet tape I've seen and used) has a less than benign effects on surfaces. If so, it'll be the devil to remove, leave a hard to clean up mess and may well void any warranty. All done at least 1X/yr., and with the idea of either working under an array or at least partial array removal to get at what's commonly the inaccessible backside of an array.

This whole thing is a scam.

[Mike90250]

.......... How does one manage to attach and remove such a system from most any array ?
- I'd assume the double faced tape they're referring to (like the double faced carpet tape I've seen and used) has a less than benign effects on surfaces. If so, it'll be the devil to remove, leave a hard to clean up mess and may well void any warranty. All done at least 1X/yr., and with the idea of either working under an array or at least partial array removal to get at what's commonly the inaccessible backside of an array.

This whole thing is a scam.

How do i re-attach my backsheet ?

[bcroe]

I do not see any details on the device, where is it? I ask, why bother to add elements to a panel,
when the energy can be fed into the existing terminals and wiring? My first guess is it would take
6 KW (by his estimate) to clear a string, which I would need to switch from one string after another.
Can not supply enough to do the array in one shot. I used more power than that and failed. Bruce Roe

[J.P.M.]

How do i re-attach my backsheet ?

Best way seems to me to be by not messing with it in the first place by putting stuff over it.

Most of my thinking revolved around how to even get at most of the backside of an array and then how to keep from damaging an array by application and subsequent removal of stuff being stuck to it. Then, there's the performance penalty from increased cell temps. when ice removal is not required with all that's associated with that set of added potential problem scenarios.

I can get under my roof mounted array, but that's with an ~~ 10"-12" or so clearance by design where most are arrays have <=6" clearance or so. Even at 12", I'd have a devil of a time attaching/removing such stuff from my array. Ground mounts might be easier, but the hassle is still probably a PITA, even at 2X/yr. min. on/off and the damage potential and other risks of voided warranties still exist.

Overall, IMO, it's a non solution or worse to the snow/ice removal situation, but simplistic solutions are always tempting and remain fertile ground for con artists and scammers.

This is a B.S. scam.

[foo1bar]

One more thing that panel warming system has melted 5 lb per square foot of ice on solar panels that are fixed or flexible thin film. It melts in about 3 hours at minus 3 degrees Fahrenheit.

So melting 5 pounds takes about 210Wh. (42Wh/pound or 143BTU/pound is the heat of fusion for water).

If it takes about 3 hours, that means 70W per square foot.

A typical residential module is just over 16 square feet - so that means this system would be doing about 1kw per module of heat.

So, yep - looks like a scam to me.

[J.P.M.]

So melting 5 pounds takes about 210Wh. (42Wh/pound or 143BTU/pound is the heat of fusion for water).

If it takes about 3 hours, that means 70W per square foot.

A typical residential module is just over 16 square feet - so that means this system would be doing about 1kw per module of heat.

So, yep - looks like a scam to me.

Add to that whatever heat the melt water may transfer to the ambient air over the 3 hours as sensible heat if the ambient air is < 0 C.

The load is also dependent on the dew point of that ambient air for any latent heat for the melt, plus (while not trying to be too p(r)icky), any sublimation directly to vapor by the ice during the period which also adds some latent heat of vaporization to the heating requirements.

It's a B.S. scam by amateurs who may think they are technically proficient but are clueless of what's going on and ignorant of what's required to accomplish a task in a safe and fit for purpose way.

It's asshole antics like this that pushed me back and into a university BSME over 40 years ago to get my own answers. Some things never change.

Caveat Emptor.

[Mike90250]

So melting 5 pounds takes about 210Wh. (42Wh/pound or 143BTU/pound is the heat of fusion for water).......

But you don't have to melt all the snow, just a thin layer and let it all slide off - whoosh

My panels cleared after about an hour of sun, only about 2.5 inches of snow
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