Advice for an incremental build with micro grid-tie inverters

[Sunking]

Bet they did not catch DIY panels. Your insurance and electrical inspector will care a lot.. What happens on your side of the meter is of no concern to the POCO. They can careless if you burn your house down out of ignorance, as they do not have liability. Bu tyou can bet the local FD and your insurance carrier care a lot about it and will hold you liable. Not to mention criminal liability for injury and death as a result.

[russ]

North Carolina coop power - figures

[getut]

Part of that initial hookup will involve a Net metering and Power production agreement with the PoCo. You will have to list the size of your system on that agreement. It will have to match the government permits.

When you start increasing the size of your system it will be short order before the PoCo realizes you hav increased the size of your system. That will require amending the origanal agreements and reinspection by the PoCo. Once they see the DIY panels and no new permits you will be shut down.

Sorry but no way around it.

WWW

Sorry, but I guess I should have STARTED with my power company. Energy United is a power cooperative and I just got word back from them that adding capactiy would be no issue whatsoever. In their agreement, residential plans are blanket covered for everything up to 20 or 25 kw production. I just got the email a few minutes ago so I'm still not sure which is the limit 20 or 25 because it lists 20 in one place and 25 in another. But I specifically asked about the plan to start very very small and grow the system using purchased expandable micro-inverters and home made panels and he said absolutely no problem. He said the same agreement with them covers generation using any method up to that limit. Solar, hydro, wind, etc. and he said they have some customers using all the above and expanding all the time. BTW.. the company limit was 100kw.

So kudos to Energy United for having a sane, non-intrusive but logical policy.

[Wy_White_Wolf]

Let me explain better so some of you will understand, I fully understand about the hooking the system to the grid needing a permit etc. I plan to do the initial install with ALL UL listed equipment and get permits etc for everything that is done but only in the first phase. I also plan to have that initial install all done by my electrician on top of my pole building that I will be building in the spring. But that initial phase will be the most expensive. By the time my electrician modifies my panel and I get all my wiring out to the pole building, I won't have enough money left except to have max 2-3 panels and matching inverters installed in that initial pass.

But once I have the frame work in place and professionally done, I plan to build my own panels and use them with the same model micro-inverters that I start the project with. I never said I was going to build my own micro-inverters. I WILL build my own panels and expand the existing system by adding a panel and a microinverter every couple of months until my capacity reaches a point I am satisfied with it. That is the "fun" part of the project. Building the panels and expanding my system. This is the part that I simply will not ask the government for permission every time I add a panel or two.

So I'm trying to get advice from you guys on the specifics. It is important to me to do it right and safely. If it is cheaper to buy them I'd love to know. I don't mind buying the cheap panels from the Chinese market dumping them. Doing this incrementally will allow me to have a larger number of them in the end that I would have otherwise been able to do all at once, so if they start degrading at 10 years instead of 20 or only put out 90% of their rating it doesn't bother me. I'll just add more of them over time.

Part of that initial hookup will involve a Net metering and Power production agreement with the PoCo. You will have to list the size of your system on that agreement. It will have to match the government permits.

When you start increasing the size of your system it will be short order before the PoCo realizes you hav increased the size of your system. That will require amending the origanal agreements and reinspection by the PoCo. Once they see the DIY panels and no new permits you will be shut down.

Sorry but no way around it.

WWW

[russ]

Getting permits and permission for a plug and play system is just government gone stupid.

If you look at it in terms of the old large systems and the rules built around those systems then you are right, it is dumb. But if you look at it with a technical eye, the regulations are archaic and protectionist.

Your technical eye has something seriously wrong with it!

SCB's are not welcome in the world and especially on this site. Regulations, codes and standards have been developed to resolve problems seen in the past or potential problems. If you can't understand what the concern is then it is your problem.

[SunEagle]

When it comes to the grid, rules and regulations are there first and foremost for everyone's safety and protection. As far as the utility company is concerned, your system is just a system. It doesn't matter if it's plug and play or not. If you're using the grid, you have a responsibility to follow rules and regulations so that everyone else on the grid is safe and protected. It's not all about you.

How would the utility company know that once you've modified your system, that's it was done in a safe manner, unless you inform them of the change so that they can inspect and make sure that your modification was done properly and safely? What if some idiot decides to not just build their own panel, but their own inverter, too, and doesn't have a proper shut-down mechanism built into the inverter to shut it off when the grid is down? If not, workers who have to work on power lines when the grid is down may risk being shocked and killed by electricity produced by your panels and still energized by your inverter back into the grid.

If you don't agree with rules and regulations put in place not just for your own safety but other people's safety, too, then you have no business using the grid. It's not about rules and regulations being archaic. It's about safety and if you agree to use the grid, you have the responsibility to do your part to ensure that you use the grid in a safe and responsible manner for the safety of everyone else around you using that grid, too.

It's a free country and if you don't like to play by the rules, you can always go off-grid and design and build whatever you want to your heart's content with an off-grid system and nobody else could care less. But as long as you're on the grid, it's not just your own business anymore and it's become everybody else's business what you do to that grid.

Well stated.

While I don't like the idea of being told or regulated for everything I do by the Government I will be the first in line to make sure I follow the National Electric code and rules when it comes to the safety of others. The electrical code was not put in place to make it hard for people to do what they want but to keep everyone safe. Based on my work experience I have followed those rules for over 35 years. No one that has ever worked for me has been hurt.

Go around those safety rules and you open yourself up to hurting or killing someone. That will never be a justification because you didn't like a regulation or thought you could save a few dollars.


getut

Just remember that others might not like to follow the "rules" which can and will expose you to the same unsafe practices that you are talking about. Don't you think it would be bad if you or one of your family got electrocuted by that someone? The rules were written to protect you also.

[Volusiano]

I think the rules are set up with traditional large scale grid tie systems in mind. Many of the micro-inverter grid tie system are set up to essentially be hot pluggable. Add a panel and micro-inverter to the end of the chain fasten it all down and make it pretty and done. Getting permits and permission for a plug and play system is just government gone stupid.

If you look at it in terms of the old large systems and the rules built around those systems then you are right, it is dumb. But if you look at it with a technical eye, the regulations are archaic and protectionist.

When it comes to the grid, rules and regulations are there first and foremost for everyone's safety and protection. As far as the utility company is concerned, your system is just a system. It doesn't matter if it's plug and play or not. If you're using the grid, you have a responsibility to follow rules and regulations so that everyone else on the grid is safe and protected. It's not all about you.

How would the utility company know that once you've modified your system, that's it was done in a safe manner, unless you inform them of the change so that they can inspect and make sure that your modification was done properly and safely? What if some idiot decides to not just build their own panel, but their own inverter, too, and doesn't have a proper shut-down mechanism built into the inverter to shut it off when the grid is down? If not, workers who have to work on power lines when the grid is down may risk being shocked and killed by electricity produced by your panels and still energized by your inverter back into the grid.

If you don't agree with rules and regulations put in place not just for your own safety but other people's safety, too, then you have no business using the grid. It's not about rules and regulations being archaic. It's about safety and if you agree to use the grid, you have the responsibility to do your part to ensure that you use the grid in a safe and responsible manner for the safety of everyone else around you using that grid, too.

It's a free country and if you don't like to play by the rules, you can always go off-grid and design and build whatever you want to your heart's content with an off-grid system and nobody else could care less. But as long as you're on the grid, it's not just your own business anymore and it's become everybody else's business what you do to that grid.

[getut]

First off you would "always" have to be using more power than your system generates. (That seems like a waste of energy to me).

But even if you do all it takes is for clouds to come over and the Utility will see wild power usage swings from very little being used when the sun is shining to a lot when it is not. Most homes don't consume power that way and it will probably send up a flag as being strange requiring investigating.

I believe you are trying to out think the Utility and in the end will probably cost you much more that getting a permit for each addition.

Just my thoughts but your decision to not comply with the rules is waste of your money and plain dumb.

I think the rules are set up with traditional large scale grid tie systems in mind. Many of the micro-inverter grid tie system are set up to essentially be hot pluggable. Add a panel and micro-inverter to the end of the chain fasten it all down and make it pretty and done. Getting permits and permission for a plug and play system is just government gone stupid.

If you look at it in terms of the old large systems and the rules built around those systems then you are right, it is dumb. But if you look at it with a technical eye, the regulations are archaic and protectionist.

[Volusiano]

If that is likely to be an issue, is there any way to use grid-tie and ensure it always supplements or possibly supplies up to 100% of a homes need without backfeeding the grid?

First of all, there will most likely be 2 separate meters, one to monitor your solar production ONLY, and the other one is the main meter monitoring the combination of consumption and production combined. The one for monitoring the solar production ONLY (usually put in place for SREC credit counting by the utility company) will be the one that "gives you away", telling the utility company that your production is above the norm (if you expand).

Secondly, your question on whether there's a way to ensure that the solar power is used up "without backfeeding the grid" (your own word) is not synonymous with a grid-tied system because the whole idea of a grid-tied system IS to BACKFEED into the grid to get energy credit banked to be used later at a time when there's no solar production.

I never said I was going to build my own micro-inverters. I WILL build my own panels and expand the existing system by adding a panel and a microinverter every couple of months until my capacity reaches a point I am satisfied with it.

OK, this clarifies it. But you did write before that you were going to build your own panels and additional microinverters. Unless you meant one thing and wrote another thing due to bad writing. Below is the quote on exactly what you wrote:

2) Once that is done I want to start with a single panel and single micro-inverter. I will probably buy a high quality pre-made panel to start with, but I want to build the rest of my panels and additional micro-inverters myself as I go and as money frees up.

[SunEagle]

If that is likely to be an issue, is there any way to use grid-tie and ensure it always supplements or possibly supplies up to 100% of a homes need without backfeeding the grid?

First off you would "always" have to be using more power than your system generates. (That seems like a waste of energy to me).

But even if you do all it takes is for clouds to come over and the Utility will see wild power usage swings from very little being used when the sun is shining to a lot when it is not. Most homes don't consume power that way and it will probably send up a flag as being strange requiring investigating.

I believe you are trying to out think the Utility and in the end will probably cost you much more that getting a permit for each addition.

Just my thoughts but your decision to not comply with the rules is waste of your money and plain dumb.

[getut]

What you haven't considered is that the Utility will be confused when you start to generate more power then what was originally stated on your permit. Their net metering logs will see the increase going beyond what was installed. They will then come out to investigate and will find the additional panels you installed without getting their permission.

Now based on your Utility, they might not even care about the additional panels if they are UL listed and properly installed per Electric Code. But if they are not UL listed be prepared to get disconnected and probably penalized with a big fine.

If that is likely to be an issue, is there any way to use grid-tie and ensure it always supplements or possibly supplies up to 100% of a homes need without backfeeding the grid?

[SunEagle]

Let me explain better so some of you will understand, I fully understand about the hooking the system to the grid needing a permit etc. I plan to do the initial install with ALL UL listed equipment and get permits etc for everything that is done but only in the first phase. I also plan to have that initial install all done by my electrician on top of my pole building that I will be building in the spring. But that initial phase will be the most expensive. By the time my electrician modifies my panel and I get all my wiring out to the pole building, I won't have enough money left except to have max 2-3 panels and matching inverters installed in that initial pass.

But once I have the frame work in place and professionally done, I plan to build my own panels and use them with the same model micro-inverters that I start the project with. I never said I was going to build my own micro-inverters. I WILL build my own panels and expand the existing system by adding a panel and a microinverter every couple of months until my capacity reaches a point I am satisfied with it. That is the "fun" part of the project. Building the panels and expanding my system. This is the part that I simply will not ask the government for permission every time I add a panel or two.

So I'm trying to get advice from you guys on the specifics. It is important to me to do it right and safely. If it is cheaper to buy them I'd love to know. I don't mind buying the cheap panels from the Chinese market dumping them. Doing this incrementally will allow me to have a larger number of them in the end that I would have otherwise been able to do all at once, so if they start degrading at 10 years instead of 20 or only put out 90% of their rating it doesn't bother me. I'll just add more of them over time.

What you haven't considered is that the Utility will be confused when you start to generate more power then what was originally stated on your permit. Their net metering logs will see the increase going beyond what was installed. They will then come out to investigate and will find the additional panels you installed without getting their permission.

Now based on your Utility, they might not even care about the additional panels if they are UL listed and properly installed per Electric Code. But if they are not UL listed be prepared to get disconnected and probably penalized with a big fine.

[getut]

How are you going to get your DIY panels and inverters UL listed? Unless you live in a 3rd world country that will be a permit requirement.

With how low panels have dropped in price you can now buy panels for less than you can build them.

WWW

Let me explain better so some of you will understand, I fully understand about the hooking the system to the grid needing a permit etc. I plan to do the initial install with ALL UL listed equipment and get permits etc for everything that is done but only in the first phase. I also plan to have that initial install all done by my electrician on top of my pole building that I will be building in the spring. But that initial phase will be the most expensive. By the time my electrician modifies my panel and I get all my wiring out to the pole building, I won't have enough money left except to have max 2-3 panels and matching inverters installed in that initial pass.

But once I have the frame work in place and professionally done, I plan to build my own panels and use them with the same model micro-inverters that I start the project with. I never said I was going to build my own micro-inverters. I WILL build my own panels and expand the existing system by adding a panel and a microinverter every couple of months until my capacity reaches a point I am satisfied with it. That is the "fun" part of the project. Building the panels and expanding my system. This is the part that I simply will not ask the government for permission every time I add a panel or two.

So I'm trying to get advice from you guys on the specifics. It is important to me to do it right and safely. If it is cheaper to buy them I'd love to know. I don't mind buying the cheap panels from the Chinese market dumping them. Doing this incrementally will allow me to have a larger number of them in the end that I would have otherwise been able to do all at once, so if they start degrading at 10 years instead of 20 or only put out 90% of their rating it doesn't bother me. I'll just add more of them over time.

[SunEagle]

More than likely the Utility will detect that you have illegally connected to their grid and they will just shut off your power until you disconnect.

Then you can figure out how to build an off grid system to keep his lights on or just run your generator.

I know that sounds mean but there are safety rules that you need to follow and get permission no matter if you like it or not. You can't just decide to do things yourself and think you can get away with breaking the law.

[Wy_White_Wolf]

Unfortunately the money isn't there to do this anything other than incrementally. Also the WANT to do this all at once isn't there. I want to do this as a fun project for me. I'm willing to get an initial permit but will do the add ons with or without a permit. Besides, I don't even think it is possible to get a permit if I build my own panels which I will definitely be doing as I expand the system. I have a lot of libertarian in me.. I love doing things right, neatly and safely but couldn't care less about getting permission from government to do it. If my electrician and other knowledgeable eyes say its right, safe and neat it'll get done.

Would you like paying the power company for power you produce? or would you rather they credit you for that power to offset your dark hour usage?

Not all meters turn backwards and those that do are getting replaced with smartmeters that will tattle on you.

WWW