What do you think about this technology ??

[russ]

The payback period for bloom energy boxes is between 20 and 25 years without any subsidy.

Actually the Boom Boxes are the low end of fuel cell technology - Just hucksters doing a pump and dump.

The people seriously in the business were irritated at the claims made by the VC and shyster about the Bloom Box.

[greenfilm]

The payback period for bloom energy boxes is between 20 and 25 years without any subsidy.

Without a combination of federal tax credits and state incentives, no one will be willing to spend money on this technology. Even after the subsidies, the payback period is close to 10 years.

The only positive aspect is natural gas prices are going down and it provides some attraction.

However the fuel cells need replacement after a certain number of years and if you perform a Life Cycle Cost Analysis, it probably doesnt make any sense to buy one except for PR purposes.

There are instances where it might make sense financially - when you use biogas ( like ebay does for its data centers ) but it is an exception rather than the norm.

[moguitar]

The High End

The high end of AGW is methane turnover.

http://www.wunderground.com/climate/PETM.asp?MR=1

Look at the charts on today's warming vs. PETM,
but that is a thousand years from now or so, and people only care about now.

[peakbagger]

Most estimates are that the world doesnt run out of fossil fuels, it runs out of place to put the CO2 produced by burning them. A few environmental groups have come to conclusion that just burning the current proven and near term potential fossil reserves, that the CO2 level in the atmosphere gets high enough where the high end of the predictions for global warming are likely.

[inetdog]

Hi there
Thanks for replying
I hope we will be fine......

From a classic Peanuts cartoon:

Charlie Brown is lamenting to, I think, Linus about the test in school coming up that morning. He says that he was up all night worrying about it and hoping that it would turn out OK.
Linus replies: "Charlie Brown, hoping and worrying should not be confused with studying."

At some point, action will be required. We just can't agree yet on what that action should be.

[SolarWatt]

Hi there
Thanks for replying
I hope we will be fine......

[Sunking]

The world needs to start weaning itself off fossil fuel. Too many wars etc. have been started and waged over this. Let's get real US middle east policy is based on protecting our access to cheap oil, Period.
There are alternatives to fossil fuel. electricity can be produced with Solar (not particularly reliable since it dark at least half the time) but as a supplement.
Wind (well there are some places that this works well but for the vast majority no.)
Then we come to the nuclear option. Thorium flouride is a very proven and fairly abundant fuel. It has the advantages of being a fail safe material, does not need nearly the containment building that traditional breeder reactors require and finally (This is what was the deal breaker when it was first developed in the late 40's early 50's) is it cannot be weaponized.
Coal and other fossil fuels have their place. Until battery technology progresses to the point of the 300 mile range, affordable cars and battery replacement and with quick recharge stations plentiful fossil fuel is pretty much the only option.
fracking of Natural gas in the US has opened up a tremendous amount of energy. However using this for generating electricity when there are other technologies avalalable is a waste. Use this to power CNG cars and trucks. Use Thorium, solar, wind, biomass, (not food crops) cogeneration etc to generate electricity.

Rich I pretty much agree with you but there are some things which there is no replacement for Fossil Fuel. But there are answers and they will be implemented. More on that in a second. When it comes to Planes, Medium & Heavy Transportation, Marine shipping there is no replacement we are willing to use right now. But one does exist and can satisfy the need for a few hundred years.

One thing is for sure and you can bet on it. The last drop of crude oil will be burned to power a bomber to drop the last aerial bomb. Not something I look forward to but that is the reality. But I do not think you and I nor anyone here will ever see it happen as that is at least 100 years down the road, unless WW-III breaks out before then. Winner takes all left over oil stocks.

For light transportation and light rail, electricity is the answer. The only reliable, proven, clean, cheap, safe, and inexhaustible fuel in nuclear. You hit the nail on the head with Thorium Floride, and Fast Breeder Reactors.

Back to Heavy transportation. With Nuclear reactors there is plenty of reserve heat capacity to turn coal into Kerosene and Diesel fuel to power all the planes, heavy rail, trucking, and marine shipping. It is even possible to use small Thorium Reactors to power Marine Shipping and Heavy Rail. It is not even a stretch to say air transportation as it has already been done. Even Space Travel will have to be nuclear and I think you and I will live to see it with a manned Mars mission. Only question is who wil be the first to Mars. Right now my money is on Russia or China.

[Naptown]

The world needs to start weaning itself off fossil fuel. Too many wars etc. have been started and waged over this. Let's get real US middle east policy is based on protecting our access to cheap oil, Period.
There are alternatives to fossil fuel. electricity can be produced with Solar (not particularly reliable since it dark at least half the time) but as a supplement.
Wind (well there are some places that this works well but for the vast majority no.)
Then we come to the nuclear option. Thorium flouride is a very proven and fairly abundant fuel. It has the advantages of being a fail safe material, does not need nearly the containment building that traditional breeder reactors require and finally (This is what was the deal breaker when it was first developed in the late 40's early 50's) is it cannot be weaponized.
Coal and other fossil fuels have their place. Until battery technology progresses to the point of the 300 mile range, affordable cars and battery replacement and with quick recharge stations plentiful fossil fuel is pretty much the only option.
fracking of Natural gas in the US has opened up a tremendous amount of energy. However using this for generating electricity when there are other technologies avalalable is a waste. Use this to power CNG cars and trucks. Use Thorium, solar, wind, biomass, (not food crops) cogeneration etc to generate electricity.

[SolarWatt]

I Am worried!

It seems there is no good alternative to fossil fuel
So what will I do in 2050 ??
How will I run my laptop ??
How will I warm my house??
How will anything work ??

[Sunking]

Anyone remember the 60 minutes hype pieces on Dean Kamens next great invention that would change the world

Yes and CBS is also the same propaganda agency that did the piece on Bloom and of course the fictional story on Bush which ended Dan Rather's career.

Funny thing is Sedgeway is a done. It was sold to James W. Heselden, 62, who took control of the company, accidentally steered the Sedgeway off a 30-foot cliff and into a river while riding on his estate, and died in the accident. The irony of Sedgeway is the company is going bankrupt from the publicity of the owners fate and dozens of personal injury law suits.

[peakbagger]

Bloom is a typical VC investment scam. Basically someone with technical credibility claims to have developed the next best thing. Early stage Venture Capital investors invest in the company and make darn sure that they have a media person on board. They pull strings behind the scenes getting high profile installations. Usually the early installs are sold at a loss to get them installed. Then the PR goes high profile, maybe even get CBS involved to do a high profile story, then go out for either an IPO or later staged of financing where the original VC's partially cash out. Then when all the private suckers are tapped out, go IPO.

Underlying the hype is some good technology but the reality is that conventional technology is far cheaper and more reliable to install.

Anyone remember the 60 minutes hype pieces on Dean Kamens next great invention that woulf change the world with the Segway and then the small scale sterling cycle generator that would burn anything and generate electricity? His approach on the Sterling unit was to hype the concept and then license the technology.

[Sunking]

And Bloom can continue to say that they "have been installed at Google" without any mention of the fact that they have also been removed.....

Sure they can because it is a TRUE statement. You just need a Paul Harvey to tell you the Rest Of The Story. R.I.P Paul.

[inetdog]

Google already got rid of them. It was just a PR campaign to look GREEN at Tax Payers expense.

And Bloom can continue to say that they "have been installed at Google" without any mention of the fact that they have also been removed.....

[Sunking]

They made a big splash by selling (or leasing) units to some big name companies - totally to access the tax credits - they are actually taking money out of everyone's pocket.

Right - Google did and got a good break on cost and the tax credit - the VC's were looking for big names to try to make it go.

Google already got rid of them. It was just a PR campaign to look GREEN at Tax Payers expense.

[russ]

They made a big splash by selling (or leasing) units to some big name companies - totally to access the tax credits - they are actually taking money out of everyone's pocket.

Right - Google did and got a good break on cost and the tax credit - the VC's were looking for big names to try to make it go.