Liquid Metal Battery Could Budget Sun's Energy

[Lee72]

I found an interesting story on NPR:

David Greene talks to materials chemist Donald Sadoway from the TED (Technology, Entertainment and Design) conference in Long Beach, Calif. Sadoway is the co-inventor of the liquid metal battery. It's inexpensive, super efficient, sustainable and can provide large scale energy storage.

here is the link http://www.npr.org/2012/03/02/147787...oing-and-going

[Sunking]

Nothing new about this as they have been around on very small scale for decades in labs. Problem is they are extremely dangerous. They have to operate at 700 degrees, and if the electrolyte ever comes into contact with air or moisture will spontaneously explode. Just algae to fuel it only works in a lab and will never be scaled up.

[tandrews]

That article reads like gossip...
Liquid metal power generation is indeed very old, but considering the perspective and variations on it, like solar molten salt plants or decay maintained molten reactors.

Here's some perspective on a big picture consideration that may well affect us all and make most of these discussions moot.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=N2vzotsvvkw

How is this relevant?
Well, it took a lot of suns to make the thorium we live with today, and I suggest it's also why we enjoy the ongoing magnetosphere that has allowed us to get to this point.
That is, all of us are living on a liquid metal battery. Right glad about it I am. Radiation in moderation

[Sunking]

That article reads like gossip...
Liquid metal power generation is indeed very old, but considering the perspective and variations on it, like solar molten salt plants or decay maintained molten reactors.

Here's some perspective on a big picture consideration that may well affect us all and make most of these discussions moot.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=N2vzotsvvkw

How is this relevant?
Well, it took a lot of suns to make the thorium we live with today, and I suggest it's also why we enjoy the ongoing magnetosphere that has allowed us to get to this point.
That is, all of us are living on a liquid metal battery. Right glad about it I am. Radiation in moderation

Tandrews I am impressed, you are not the typical uneducated US citizen baffled by Greenies. Politicians and the Green movement do not want the public to know about Thorium reactors. Fortunately though they are one of the few that the NREC will approve withn a year and are already being built.

Could you imagine the noise US citizens would make if they knew there was an energy source right here in the country that is dirt cheap, 1 billion years of supply, no waste, no pollution, and the plant for a whole city can fit in your basement. They would really be pissed if they found out the reactor made it own fuel, and can make diesel fuel from the air and water to run their cars for less than a buck a gallon.

[Naptown]

Tandrews I am impressed, you are not the typical uneducated US citizen baffled by Greenies. Politicians and the Green movement do not want the public to know about Thorium reactors. Fortunately though they are one of the few that the NREC will approve withn a year and are already being built.

Could you imagine the noise US citizens would make if they knew there was an energy source right here in the country that is dirt cheap, 1 billion years of supply, no waste, no pollution, and the plant for a whole city can fit in your basement. They would really be pissed if they found out the reactor made it own fuel, and can make diesel fuel from the air and water to run their cars for less than a buck a gallon.

I watched and now I am pissed. So who has been keeping this under wraps for this long.

[Sunking]

I watched and now I am pissed. So who has been keeping this under wraps for this long.

Rich they already exist and in production. Basically it is the US Senate, Congress, and the Executive office keeping it under wraps.

DOE, DOD, and UREC are wrapping up construction of two new thorium nuke plants. I just finished up about a year ago on the coal handling units for the rail service. TVA will operate one of the plants and the electric power will be sold to the public and the excess heat from the reactor to make synthetic Fuel of the Military. There is a heavy rail system to deliver coal to the plant, and refinery to turn coal to gas and diesel, and a pipe line to distribute the fuel to area military bases.

Everything about Green Energy is bunk and pure politics. The US government has no intention on relying on Green Energy. No Scientist will tell you Green Energy is the answer. They all know nuclear is the only answer to meet the demands.

[tandrews]

This longer version speaks to the under wraps query:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=P9M__yYbsZ4

Regarding the "green" movement, consider it a marketing term only.
I view it as a necessary evil.

While many realize it is entirely driven by greed and politics, the global awareness it has shaken free in many heads may well be a worthy result, despite the veil that was intended by many proponents diving into the green money pool, solar included as noted elsewhere on this forum. No diss.
It too is a matter of perspective as nothing is really "green".
Given us humans revel at classification of the world as we know it (or as presented to us by the media surrounding us) labeling things as green falls in line as acceptable.

The butterfly effect applies here as anywhere else.
There are green hydro dams that have caused seismic events where they would otherwise never occur, geothermal installations that have drained aquafers that have persisted for thousands of years and redirected magma (stop cooling something, what happens?) as a result. Nothing we do of any scale goes without consequences on the road to type 1 civilization.

I just hope we make it there.

[Mike90250]

I watched and now I am pissed. So who has been keeping this under wraps for this long.

The whales and dolphins. They WANT global flooding

[Naptown]

I wouldn't mind about 10-12' worth
It would give me about 400' of waterfront.

[billvon]

Could you imagine the noise US citizens would make if they knew there was an energy source right here in the country that is dirt cheap, 1 billion years of supply, no waste, no pollution, and the plant for a whole city can fit in your basement. They would really be pissed if they found out the reactor made it own fuel, and can make diesel fuel from the air and water to run their cars for less than a buck a gallon.

Yep. I remember similar claims for nuclear power in the 50's. "Power too cheap to meter!" Nowadays it's thorium reactors, PBMR's, HTGR's, CANDU's etc that will save us and provide unlimited cheap energy and fuel. All are cool technologies - but none solve all the problems inherent in nuclear power.

[russ]

- but none solve all the problems inherent in nuclear power.

Sounds true green! A statement that is short on fact but gives the impression of certainity.

[billvon]

Sounds true green! A statement that is short on fact but gives the impression of certainity.

??? No energy source is perfect - and that includes nuclear and solar. And that IS a certainty.

[Sunking]

Yep. I remember similar claims for nuclear power in the 50's. "Power too cheap to meter!" Nowadays it's thorium reactors, PBMR's, HTGR's, CANDU's etc that will save us and provide unlimited cheap energy and fuel. All are cool technologies - but none solve all the problems inherent in nuclear power.

You really need to come up to date. 50/60/70/80's reactors are all pressurized water designs which require a uranium fuel and an external source of cooling.

All those designs are gone. You have victim to GREEN INTEREST, POLITICS, and PROPAGANDA.

There is no reason to store any fuel rods or use uranium as the fuel source. It is a man made political problem which can be fixed with a simple Signature made with a PEN & INK.

Today's reactors are passively safe, over 1 billion years or fuel supply in the USA, dirt cheap, and make their own fuel.

[billvon]

You really need to come up to date. 50/60/70/80's reactors are all pressurized water designs which require a uranium fuel and an external source of cooling.

Nope. Many currently operating designs are boiling water reactors (BWR's) which have a single coolant loop - reactor boils water, water drives a turbine. This is different from a pressurized water reactor (PWR) which has a pressurized primary loop that does not boil, and exchanges heat with a secondary loop that drives a turbine.

All those designs are gone.

There's a PWR running just a few miles from me.

You have victim to GREEN INTEREST, POLITICS, and PROPAGANDA.

And what "propaganda" would that be?

There is no reason to store any fuel rods or use uranium as the fuel source.

Even thorium reactors need a fissile "seed" to start the reaction, since thorium is not fissile itself. The seed is typically uranium or plutonium. It provides neutrons that transmute a small amount of thorium to uranium-233. Uranium-233 IS fissile, and starts generating power from fission reactions. This also produces more neutrons which breeds more thorium to uranium. It is the uranium, rather than the thorium, that produces power.

Thorium reactors generate waste just as any other fission plant does. Disposing of it presents a similar level of difficulty.

Today's reactors are passively safe, over 1 billion years or fuel supply in the USA, dirt cheap, and make their own fuel.

Sounds like you really bought in to _their_ propaganda! You didn't know about the fissile seed required to start the reaction; that's an example of the details that crop up that make it a lot more complicated, expensive and messy than the sales pitch makes it sound.

[russ]

??? No energy source is perfect - and that includes nuclear and solar. And that IS a certainty.

Don't think I said nuclear was perfect. However, it does happen to be the only practical way forward.

Both extremes twist and turn any discussion into a BSing match -