Norsun Q-sol series plate collector Internals

[MikeSolar]

Thanks Mike:

I got them set up right and thought I saw a temperature rise and then Nova Scotia weather struck. The sun went in and out of cloud cover, the wind came up, it rained and then the sun came out again. It was hard to get a reading but I think it will work.

The pool is really only for July and August, 90 frost free days, so I'll experiment at minimal cost.

In the good news : I mowed an acre with only two charging sessions for my riding mower conversion and my 5 PV panels have generated 5+kwh a day for a week. I'm still working on using a 10 gal water heater to use the excess power. The relays are a bit pschyco but I'll figure it out.

John McManus

That's NS for you. Don't like the weather, wait 5 minutes.

Where abouts are you?

[rumleyfips]

Thanks Mike:

I got them set up right and thought I saw a temperature rise and then Nova Scotia weather struck. The sun went in and out of cloud cover, the wind came up, it rained and then the sun came out again. It was hard to get a reading but I think it will work.

The pool is really only for July and August, 90 frost free days, so I'll experiment at minimal cost.

In the good news : I mowed an acre with only two charging sessions for my riding mower conversion and my 5 PV panels have generated 5+kwh a day for a week. I'm still working on using a 10 gal water heater to use the excess power. The relays are a bit pschyco but I'll figure it out.

John McManus

[MikeSolar]

I bought 2 Norsun TD-1000 panels to experiment with as a 4300 gallon pool heater. I installed them inlet and outlet down ( thinking about draining for winter)and am getting no temperature rise. I suspect I need to turn them around so the inlet and outlet tubes are at the top and try again. Is this correct?

Thanks:
John

Yup, they are heat pipes so the input/output need to be at the top. It can still drain back. Two panels won't get you too far with that size of pool but they will be efficient, have fun.

[rumleyfips]

Rookie mistake.

I bought 2 Norsun TD-1000 panels to experiment with as a 4300 gallon pool heater. I installed them inlet and outlet down ( thinking about draining for winter)and am getting no temperature rise. I suspect I need to turn them around so the inlet and outlet tubes are at the top and try again. Is this correct?

Thanks:
John

[jfguay2]

One option is to use two pumps in series. There are some controllers which will run both pumps for 3-4 min then shut one off. What ever you do make sure the loop is air tight and I assume you will draw directly from the big tank. I have to remind you that 3 Norsuns and 200 gal won't give you 50C water often. It will still have to go through a backup tank.

Hello Mike,

As per another thread I started, I now am planning on getting many more panels , say 8 of the Marvel Cls 2510.

See http://www.solarpaneltalk.com/showth...quipment/page2

I now want to determine the best array for them, and the proper pipe size.

What do you think?

Thanks a bunch,

JF

[MikeSolar]

One option is to use two pumps in series. There are some controllers which will run both pumps for 3-4 min then shut one off. What ever you do make sure the loop is air tight and I assume you will draw directly from the big tank. I have to remind you that 3 Norsuns and 200 gal won't give you 50C water often. It will still have to go through a backup tank.

[jfguay2]

Back from vacation, time to spring into action

Hello Mike,

I took some time off of the project since we had to buy a truck and travel trailer for this summer.

Now I am back and thinking again about putting this thing up. I want to build some flexibility to add more panels to the three I have eventually, and for that, am considering building a tank of around 200 gallons in the basement. I am looking at some EDPM liner of 60 millimeters that some guy is selling here, which I believe is more than enough. What is the maximum of insulation R factor I should try to go for? I understand the more you have, the less heat you loose overnight.

Remember that I am going drainback and not glycol, hence the need for a pump that can provide the 35 ft of head that I will have. I am looking at the Taco 009 VT, which has a built in controller that will manage the speed based on the differential of temperature. This can provide for less cycling of the pump, and thus less of the initial lift, which is probably straining on the pump, up until the point that the water falls back on the other side, creating a siphon at the same time.

Let me know what you think,

Regards,

Jean-Francois

[MikeSolar]

How can a 20watt panel provide enough energy to a pump to provide such a lift?
Also, if any extra heat is generated in the summer, since I wont have a need for space heating, I would run it to the pool, so that the system would never overheat...

Finally, why would you say that space heating is more for fun than profit? If the panels are used and at low cost, and if I built the tank and heat exchangers, then the return on investment is much shorter.

Cheers,
JF

Circulators (Grundfos, Taco, B&G etc) are pumps that spin an impeller in a body of water and the act of spinning causes a current to flow. But if there is too much head pressure, such as trying to push the water too high, the weight of the water equals the momentum of the pump and the water just sits there. This is called "dead heading" and is the same as if a valve was closed downstream of the pump.

A "positive displacement" (Gear, or vane) pump takes a fixed volume of liquid and moves it from A to B. It has no choice but to go where the pump moves it. In this way you can get 100psi (232 ft of vertical lift) out of the pump, or sometimes more than that.

The company I mentioned has been making solar PV powered pumps for 30 years and has a very efficient DC motor to drive the pump. For your application 20w is probably all that is necessary. You could go 25w but not more than 30w.

More for fun than profit.....without the pool, the average family might need 6m2 of panel area (2.5 of your panels). To run a pool we would look at the surface area of the pool, shade issues and pool covers and generally start at having the equivalent of 50% of the surface area in panel area. So, while it is great to have the big heat sink of the pool for the extra heat, it won't be a huge contributor to the pool heat, unless it is a small pool. Hence the fun.

[jfguay2]

Are you sure you want to have a drainback system using a circulator. The 009 is the the most common used for this application but i have never like the amount of power these pumps use. I recently put a PV powered positive displacement pump on a 10 panel system that was up 50 ft and it is working really well. Thermo-Dynamics from Nova Scotia makes a really good one and you need to get a 20w PV panels ($100 or less).

When using panels for space heating (more then 2 panels), which is more for fun than profit, LOL, Overheating is the big issue. I have been putting panels at 80-90deg on a wall to keep the summertime exposure down and keep the glycol temp down. This way you can use a smaller 50-60w pump. Just another option.

Honestly, 3 panels is just enough for DHW so an 80 gal tank is fine. Double the panel area, either make the panels vertical or double the tank volume.

How can a 20watt panel provide enough energy to a pump to provide such a lift?
Also, if any extra heat is generated in the summer, since I wont have a need for space heating, I would run it to the pool, so that the system would never overheat...

Finally, why would you say that space heating is more for fun than profit? If the panels are used and at low cost, and if I built the tank and heat exchangers, then the return on investment is much shorter.

Cheers,
JF

[MikeSolar]

Are you sure you want to have a drainback system using a circulator. The 009 is the the most common used for this application but i have never like the amount of power these pumps use. I recently put a PV powered positive displacement pump on a 10 panel system that was up 50 ft and it is working really well. Thermo-Dynamics from Nova Scotia makes a really good one and you need to get a 20w PV panels ($100 or less).

When using panels for space heating (more then 2 panels), which is more for fun than profit, LOL, Overheating is the big issue. I have been putting panels at 80-90deg on a wall to keep the summertime exposure down and keep the glycol temp down. This way you can use a smaller 50-60w pump. Just another option.

Honestly, 3 panels is just enough for DHW so an 80 gal tank is fine. Double the panel area, either make the panels vertical or double the tank volume.

[jfguay2]

Rule of thumb for all panels is between 50-100L/m2 of panel area. I know that is a big range but you have less than 2m per panel X 3 so depending on your daily usage an 80 gal tank would be minimum.

I know the Norsun panels, scrapped about 200 of them 15+ years ago, had a lot of glass too. All gone now. Oh well.

Hello,

I already have 3 panels but saw another three for sale from another fellow, which would add up to six panels. Knowing that I would like to heat water for DHW purposes, but also for space heating since I already have a radiant floor in my basement slab.aNow my challenge is that I will have around 32 feet of head given my house is two storeyss high, and I am wondering if six panels in series is too much for onepump like the taco 013??

[MikeSolar]

Rule of thumb for all panels is between 50-100L/m2 of panel area. I know that is a big range but you have less than 2m per panel X 3 so depending on your daily usage an 80 gal tank would be minimum.

I know the Norsun panels, scrapped about 200 of them 15+ years ago, had a lot of glass too. All gone now. Oh well.

[Naptown]

Use a 120 Gallon tank.
If you decide to use excess heat for the pool use a titanium/ pvc heat exchanger or you will be replacing it every couple of years. Copper and pool chemicals do not get along well together.

[jfguay2]

You don't have to open them up, really you don't.
Your call. No pressure.
I didn't want to either until I saw how they can fail.
Even then i was shy about messing with tempered glass in 3x6 format.
I am glad I got over it.

I don't know what angle you had them to do your test.
Heat rises, it doesn't care if it goes through heat pipes or slides up the inside of the glass.
That said, the glass in my good panels didn't get very warm at all while the header pipe did.
The bad panels had hot upper frames and glass.

Tank size is proportional to usage.
Maybe your tank is all pool? All Domestic hot water?

I ran cold water, at around 49.6F, and it was coming out steadily at around 53.6F, for a differential of 4F. At a flow rate of around 3.1 gal/minutes, I come up with an average of 5400 Btu/h, which would have to indicate proper output right? While my test was no where near in perfect conditions, this is impressive, and means that since we get around 10 hours of sun, I might get around 162 000 btu per sunny day, hence my question about the size, since I do not want the system to shut down because it reaches 150F in the tank at 1 am, thus loosing on the heat for the rest of the day. I am thinking at least 120 gallons, but again, as I said, I would like to use the solar water tank for heating the pool in the summer, and heating my domestic hot water the rest of the year, so should I go even higher, and get something like 200 gal. I am thinking of builind my own anyway.

JF

[tandrews]

You don't have to open them up, really you don't.
Your call. No pressure.
I didn't want to either until I saw how they can fail.
Even then i was shy about messing with tempered glass in 3x6 format.
I am glad I got over it.

I don't know what angle you had them to do your test.
Heat rises, it doesn't care if it goes through heat pipes or slides up the inside of the glass.
That said, the glass in my good panels didn't get very warm at all while the header pipe did.
The bad panels had hot upper frames and glass.

Tank size is proportional to usage.
Maybe your tank is all pool? All Domestic hot water?