Thermalux, residential hot water advancement via photovoltaics.

[FishGun]

Can't seem to find the thermalux link.

Isn't this old news? Sunbandit has been around for a couple yrs I think? They prob have all the numbers crunched...

http://www.sunbandit.us/

[bcroe]

I find Solar thermal drainback systems are very low maintenance If a stainless steel tank is used. The only Parts that could fail are the pump and the controller.
HW resistance elements are prone to failure as are the glass lined tanks that this company is using. Throw in some hard water and they may last 5-7 years. With 5 pv panels this system can't match the BTU output per day of a single 4 x 8 flat plate.
What about the inverter (Mppt) or micro inverters that they are using to power the resistance heaters? What will be the reliability of this control at the voltage and amperage required.
My Sunny Boy grid tie inverter is only guaranteed for 10 years and I think that is a long time for a high power control.
I've seen several new energy efficient heating manufacturers fail in the last few years that had a New Idea for an old problem. The problem was always the same, the equipement had too many parts and was too complicated.
Simpler is always better.

There isn't a one fits all solution to water heating. A thermal system would have had a
problem dealing with 3 months of 20 deg below zero a year ago. My solar stuff is 700'
from the house, out of site and where there aren't so many trees. A PV system powering
a heat pump has a COP multiplier of 2 or 3 to bring it closer to thermal performance. My
inverters have logged over 13,000 hours without issue, half of that at maximum power.
An MPPC from the panels to the water heater should be a lot simpler and more reliable.

However, we haven't found out yet, if the proposed system uses a heat pump, or an MPPC
to a resistor (no COP benefit), or just panels to a resistor (poor efficiency), or if there
even is any kind of control. Bruce Roe

[LucMan]

I find Solar thermal drainback systems are very low maintenance If a stainless steel tank is used. The only Parts that could fail are the pump and the controller.
HW resistance elements are prone to failure as are the glass lined tanks that this company is using. Throw in some hard water and they may last 5-7 years. With 5 pv panels this system can't match the BTU output per day of a single 4 x 8 flat plate.
What about the inverter (Mppt) or micro inverters that they are using to power the resistance heaters? What will be the reliability of this control at the voltage and amperage required.
My Sunny Boy grid tie inverter is only guaranteed for 10 years and I think that is a long time for a high power control.
I've seen several new energy efficient heating manufacturers fail in the last few years that had a New Idea for an old problem. The problem was always the same, the equipement had too many parts and was too complicated.
Simpler is always better.

[SunEagle]

I think their claim is, thermal solar is high maintenance and much more failure prone
than PV solar. I agree with that, and the ability to put the PV at considerable distance,
plus the ability to operate well in extreme cold, would both be factors here. Bruce Roe

Possibly. Except how much pv wattage do you need to run that system. Their website showed 6 x 60 cell SP panels. That will easily be over 1500 watts of high end panels. It might be less maintenance but what is the installed cost and lifetime?

My solar thermal has an 80 gallon tank and a single 4 x 10 panel. Maybe it won't last as long as the Thermalux system but since that technology is still new and untested my thinking it is a lot of money up front for a possible longer life. If might be better up in a more Northern climate that doesn't get much snow unless it is a ground mount array like yours.

[bcroe]

Details details.

First I want to see how they can claim using electric from PV to heat water as being
more efficient or cost effective than using solar thermal panels.

I think their claim is, thermal solar is high maintenance and much more failure prone
than PV solar. I agree with that, and the ability to put the PV at considerable distance,
plus the ability to operate well in extreme cold, would both be factors here. Bruce Roe

[SunEagle]

I still think this is a scam, but in theory, depending on climate, a heat pump/PV combo could be slightly more efficient than a solar thermal DHW system by itself. Usually, in practice, solar thermal is not optimally designed and maintained, making a well designed heat pump DWH system perhaps slightly more efficient and practical in a moderate climate. Where Bruce lives - Solar thermal would probably win if one could accept the greater maint. required.

Fair enough. I know heat pumps work better in the South than in the North climates.

I wasn't sure how much of the work in that system was provided by the heat pump as compared to the PV DC heating element.

I would think the pv dc heating part would not be as efficient as compared to what a solar thermal panel can do. But if you add in the time and energy to maintain the thermal system then the Solar thermal becomes even a less efficient system.

As for it being a scam or they have a working system and are just looking for investors like other kick start projects,... it is hard to tell.

I have put in some money for my Son who had a kick start project to make tee shirts. I figured I may have paid a little more for the shirt through the investment but it was for my son and was less than $100 so no big deal.

[J.P.M.]

Details details.

First I want to see how they can claim using electric from PV to heat water as being more efficient or cost effective than using solar thermal panels.

I still think this is a scam, but in theory, depending on climate, a heat pump/PV combo could be slightly more efficient than a solar thermal DHW system by itself. Usually, in practice, solar thermal is not optimally designed and maintained, making a well designed heat pump DWH system perhaps slightly more efficient and practical in a moderate climate. Where Bruce lives - Solar thermal would probably win if one could accept the greater maint. required.

[SunEagle]

For openers, more technical details of operation would help. Like, does
it use an MPPC sort of control to optimize energy transfer? How many
panels / voltage / current does it use? What about over temp cutoff?
Wouldn't a grid tied heat pump have a considerably better COP, along
with cloudy day operation?

Bruce Roe

Details details.

First I want to see how they can claim using electric from PV to heat water as being more efficient or cost effective than using solar thermal panels.

[bcroe]

Hello, one and all.

I've created this post today to try and bring some attention to a new product which Solar Energy Labs, Inc. is trying to bring into the market. It's called the 'Thermalux',an innovative new hot water heater which uses an intelligent element in order to heat water with the use of photovoltaic panels rather than solar hot water panels.

If you'd like to learn more about this project, and perhaps even help in getting the ball rolling, so to speak, then please head over to the Kickstarter page.

For openers, more technical details of operation would help. Like, does
it use an MPPC sort of control to optimize energy transfer? How many
panels / voltage / current does it use? What about over temp cutoff?
Wouldn't a grid tied heat pump have a considerably better COP, along
with cloudy day operation?

Bruce Roe

[Thor]

Well, I guess I should thank you guys.

I mean, I can tell Mike he didn't really need to go through all the work he has. All he really needed to do was take an off-the-shelf heating element and hook up a DC power source to it, and it wouldn't even require any sort of control system. To think, he's been in the game for forty some odd years and didn't realize that.

[J.P.M.]

Wow new technology! A DC powered lower element in a Bradford White electric water heater.

Sumpin' t' see , ain't it ?

[LucMan]

Wow new technology! A DC powered lower element in a Bradford White electric water heater.

[Thor]

You're looking for "pledges", right ?

You're right. This is more than a scam. A scam is a swindle. How about this: Just plain, old, dishonest B.S. ?

Honestly, I'm simply looking to try and help the company get noticed, to try and get the word out, as it were. Not being much of a social media fan, I figured the best way to do so would be to join a few of the solar forums. This isn't to say I wouldn't be happy with 'pledges', as I've worked for Mike Newman, the owner of SELI, for over a decade, and think he really has designed a good product. Hell, I'd be more than happy if the company met it's goal far ahead of schedule, but to start tossing words like 'scam' and 'swindle' around is just jumping to conclusions with no obvious logical reason.

In any case, I certainly didn't go into this as anything other than wanting to try and help, and I'm guessing I just chose the wrong forum in which to do so.

[J.P.M.]

You're looking for "pledges", right ?

You're right. This is more than a scam. A scam is a swindle. How about this: Just plain, old, dishonest B.S. ?

[Thor]

Scam alert !

Might want to look up the definition of 'scam', as it doesn't really apply here.