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  • MikeSolar
    replied
    Originally posted by PNjunction View Post
    That's right, although I can't put an exact finger on pricing. If you search out what Prof Jay Whitacre has done, you know he knows his stuff.

    Basically, an X-Ion (lithium or otherwise) battery works by intercalation. Theoretically they should last forever as the materials don't wear down. What DOES make them seem like wearing down is the SEI layer between the electrolyte and the anode and cathode. These can come from the inorganic solvent in the electrolyte of lithium batteries, and are accellerated with abuse. While at first the SEI layer is a protectant against initial aggresive decay, eventually the layer becomes so thick that the pores of the anode / cathodes are smothered, reducing the intercalation sites - much like clogging a sponge.

    What I'd like to see is information about the SEI layer in Aquion batteries - and if there even IS one. I suspect so, but perhaps it doesn't grow as fast as lithium ion batteries do.

    These batteries are really intended for the grid / micro-grid commercial operator. And of course we are so far dealing with a single-vendor. No mention seems to be made of having to use any sort of bms, although I suspect there is one. A handful of solar enthusiasts seem to be able to get their hands on them for testing, but they are under NDA as far as I know. They are also not super energy-dense, and as such are larger than lithium-ion.

    Still the big point is that by reducing the effect of the naturally growing SEI layer, and by using common chemicals, it is a very interesting technology. All the "green" and salesmanship bore me to tears. Tell me more about the SEI layer with Aquion batteries, and I'm all ears.

    As a Unix op for a long time, I find it interesting that two backers are formerly from Sun Microsystems, and of course Bill Gates is involved too, among others. I still use Bill Joy's VI editor in one form or another and of course we are all using his version of TCP/IP. Still, part of OUR taxes went to fund Aquion, like the darpa grant to develop unix back in the day, so I guess we should hope that our investment in this battery technology isn't wasted or stifled by monopolistic practices.

    The way they talk about them, it seems they want them to be used for off grid as well. I would be very interested in seeing how they work because the only other options, at the moment, if you want better longevity than a lead acid is a flow battery or NiFe, and both have their issues. Still, I don't think we have seen this much work into storage in decades.

    Leave a comment:


  • PNjunction
    replied
    Originally posted by MikeSolar View Post
    I don't believe these are lead carbon. They are supposed to be capable of 100% DOD for at least 3000 cycles and are made with sodium, salt water with manganese and carbon electrodes. I don't know what else is in it but I'm curious about it. It is supposed to be 1/2 the price of lead acid
    That's right, although I can't put an exact finger on pricing. If you search out what Prof Jay Whitacre has done, you know he knows his stuff.

    Basically, an X-Ion (lithium or otherwise) battery works by intercalation. Theoretically they should last forever as the materials don't wear down. What DOES make them seem like wearing down is the SEI layer between the electrolyte and the anode and cathode. These can come from the inorganic solvent in the electrolyte of lithium batteries, and are accellerated with abuse. While at first the SEI layer is a protectant against initial aggresive decay, eventually the layer becomes so thick that the pores of the anode / cathodes are smothered, reducing the intercalation sites - much like clogging a sponge.

    What I'd like to see is information about the SEI layer in Aquion batteries - and if there even IS one. I suspect so, but perhaps it doesn't grow as fast as lithium ion batteries do.

    These batteries are really intended for the grid / micro-grid commercial operator. And of course we are so far dealing with a single-vendor. No mention seems to be made of having to use any sort of bms, although I suspect there is one. A handful of solar enthusiasts seem to be able to get their hands on them for testing, but they are under NDA as far as I know. They are also not super energy-dense, and as such are larger than lithium-ion.

    Still the big point is that by reducing the effect of the naturally growing SEI layer, and by using common chemicals, it is a very interesting technology. All the "green" and salesmanship bore me to tears. Tell me more about the SEI layer with Aquion batteries, and I'm all ears.

    As a Unix op for a long time, I find it interesting that two backers are formerly from Sun Microsystems, and of course Bill Gates is involved too, among others. I still use Bill Joy's VI editor in one form or another and of course we are all using his version of TCP/IP. Still, part of OUR taxes went to fund Aquion, like the darpa grant to develop unix back in the day, so I guess we should hope that our investment in this battery technology isn't wasted or stifled by monopolistic practices.

    Leave a comment:


  • Sunking
    replied
    Originally posted by MikeSolar View Post
    I don't believe these are lead carbon. They are supposed to be capable of 100% DOD for at least 3000 cycles and are made with sodium, salt water with manganese and carbon electrodes. I don't know what else is in it but I'm curious about it. It is supposed to be 1/2 the price of lead acid
    Now you know why they are only available in Australia, they will believe anything with a Green Stamp on it.

    Leave a comment:


  • MikeSolar
    replied
    Originally posted by Sunking View Post
    Trojan already has lead carbon batteries for sale and has had them for about a year in their RE and Industrial line of products.
    I don't believe these are lead carbon. They are supposed to be capable of 100% DOD for at least 3000 cycles and are made with sodium, salt water with manganese and carbon electrodes. I don't know what else is in it but I'm curious about it. It is supposed to be 1/2 the price of lead acid

    Leave a comment:


  • Sunking
    replied
    Originally posted by MikeSolar View Post
    http://www.aquionenergy.com/

    I know they are kind of new but I wonder if anyone has any comments on them or knows anything more than their sparse website shows. It would be nice to have a step up from lead acid for long term storage.
    Trojan already has lead carbon batteries for sale and has had them for about a year in their RE and Industrial line of products.

    Leave a comment:


  • MikeSolar
    started a topic Aquion Energy batteries

    Aquion Energy batteries

    http://www.aquionenergy.com/

    I know they are kind of new but I wonder if anyone has any comments on them or knows anything more than their sparse website shows. It would be nice to have a step up from lead acid for long term storage.
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