Looking at pre-paid lease for solar energy system

[russ]

A single salesman has you by the short hairs - you should always get more than one quote.

It may be confusing but there are too many snake oil salesmen out there to go to one only.

[KRenn]

A single salesman has you by the short hairs - you should always get more than one quote.

It may be confusing but there are too many snake oil salesmen out there to go to one only.

This. The prices he has been quoted might have cut it a year ago, but not now. If you go to the AZ state solar website http://www.Arizonagoessolar.org, you can see which installers are actually doing the appropriate volume and which installers are full of crap. Currently I'm seeing REC, Summerwind, Solar Topps, American Solar and SolarCity doing a great deal volume, I'm sure price-wise, all those companies are also much more competitive....which is why they are doing heavy amounts of volume.


EDIT-Found a dealer offering a prepaid system for $14,000, except its a 12kw system, so 50% bigger, and still less than he was quoted on by this other installer.




Moral of the story? Don't buy what any single salesperson tells you, every salesperson will tell you that their company is the greatest thing since sliced bread, however, most companies are full of it and are based on marketing almost solely. There are several competent installers out there and it never makes sense to jump on the first quote or nothing else. Regardless of whether or not your buddies or neighbors or whoever might have used that company.

I was working for one solar company but had my system installed by another, simply because they presented me with a better value, better equipment, better pricing. In this economy I'd rather put extra money towards gas not subsidizing someone who doesn't have competitive pricing.

[montanaman]

Thanks for the input guys..

I hear you both and thank you. I hear you on getting other quotes. I always to that on cars etc. There is a time factor. APS is reducing there rebates regularly. Others I know were getting twice the rebate months ago. It is based in percent of new installs .This is also a second home and unfortunately I dont have a lot of time over there to get the additional quotes. The reason I am leaning towards this installer( Argent Solar) is because it is a SunCap/NRG lease and they are a big Fortune 500 company who is not going away anytime soon. The guys I know who have gone with them are pretty " buttoned up" and are not the types to over-pay for anything. This company is putting several new installs in my neighborhood a month. IF they are guaranteeing the output and the whole system does it really matter what kind of inverter it is? The panels are Canadian Solar which I hear are great. I am going to try and get some additonal quotes over the phone today.

Thanks again..

[KRenn]

I hear you both and thank you. I hear you on getting other quotes. I always to that on cars etc. There is a time factor. APS is reducing there rebates regularly. Others I know were getting twice the rebate months ago. It is based in percent of new installs .This is also a second home and unfortunately I dont have a lot of time over there to get the additional quotes. The reason I am leaning towards this installer( Argent Solar) is because it is a SunCap/NRG lease and they are a big Fortune 500 company who is not going away anytime soon. The guys I know who have gone with them are pretty " buttoned up" and are not the types to over-pay for anything. This company is putting several new installs in my neighborhood a month. IF they are guaranteeing the output and the whole system does it really matter what kind of inverter it is? The panels are Canadian Solar which I hear are great. I am going to try and get some additonal quotes over the phone today.

Thanks again..

Most quotes can be done via email without a site visit to give an idea of pricing.....also the aps rebate is irrelevant if you're wasting thousands of dollars more on an install. At most the aps rebate could drop ten cents....
or a diference of four or five hundred dolars.........Canadian panels are mid grade Chinese made modules....you can get better quality modules for less money.....check your private msgs....I sent you some suggestions...... basically your installer is way overpriced for the Arizona market.....if you can get better panels or even equivalent panels for four or five thousand less.....doesn't that make more sense? Also as far as suncap goes.....id say over 50% of installers in Arizona can offer suncap. Don't read too much into the power production guarantee either, its pathetically low....more of a sales gimmick than anything else.....about a quarter of your modules would have to malfunction at once and for a full year to ever trigger the guarantee......every solar lease out theere offers the same crappy guarantee

[montanaman]

Most quotes can be done via email without a site visit to give an idea of pricing.....also the aps rebate is irrelevant if you're wasting thousands of dollars more on an install. At most the aps rebate could drop ten cents....
or a diference of four or five hundred dolars.........Canadian panels are mid grade Chinese made modules....you can get better quality modules for less money.....check your private msgs....I sent you some suggestions...... basically your installer is way overpriced for the Arizona market.....if you can get better panels or even equivalent panels for four or five thousand less.....doesn't that make more sense? Also as far as suncap goes.....id say over 50% of installers in Arizona can offer suncap. Don't read too much into the power production guarantee either, its pathetically low....more of a sales gimmick than anything else.....about a quarter of your modules would have to malfunction at once and for a full year to ever trigger the guarantee......every solar lease out theere offers the same crappy guarantee

Got the on line Sunpower estimate and the install price was waaaaayyy higher for the same system. Granted it was a quick on-line estimate and I guess a purchase but it was 42k for the system

[KRenn]

Got the on line Sunpower estimate and the install price was waaaaayyy higher for the same system. Granted it was a quick on-line estimate and I guess a purchase but it was 42k for the system

That is why I brought up the lease. Sunpower panels are the most efficient.......and most expensive panels on the market. To purchase them, they're pretty pricy, but since the lease is coming directly from SunPower, they subsidize a lot of the cost, so the lease pricing ends up far less.

[montanaman]

That's too much for Chinese modules. You can do $3.40 a watt for American or German manufactured panels....and that is for purchase.

For a prepaid lease, for a 7.8kW you could and should be looking at $10-12k for SunPower modules or otherwise, with a Fronius or SMA inverter and turn-key installation.




Like I said, pricing for a 7.8kw(x $3.40 per watt) should be more along the lines of $26,500, not closer to $30k. Sounds like they are taking you to the cleaners.



Thoughts..??

[/QUOTE]



No way 3.40 per Watt for a Sunpower set up

[KRenn]

No way 3.40 per Watt for a Sunpower set up[/QUOTE]



I agree. You're probably looking at $5.00 or more per watt for Sun power if you purchase........but for conventional panels such as Canadian, Schuco, Sharp, the going rate is anywhere from $3.20 per watt to $3.50 per watt depending on the installer and that should be the total cost for everything without any surprise additions down the road.





At least in Arizona, if you go to New Mexico or Oregon or California, they all have their own respective pricing and it can be considerably more...................................

[montanaman]

Correction... Got a much better quote from Solar top and Sunpower...

20 year lease for almost 5k less and a smaller amount of better panels generating more power. Wow.. more to come..

[montanaman]

Thinking of going with Sunpower in AZ

I too am on APS in Phoenix and have gone with a pre-paid lease instead of an outright purchase. A couple of things to consider: first, who is the lessor? There are leases put forward by national players and some put forward by local installers. The former is probably better. You should not have to put up any money until your system is installed. Any lease which states you own the system at the end of the lease or can buy it for $1 may be questioned by the IRS at some point as it may run afoul of rules regarding capital vs operating leases. Most leases have several options at lease end including purchase at fair market value (FMV), or removal at no cost to you. There's been a lot of discussion about what might actually happen at lease end, what FMV would be, how much it would cost the lessor to remove the system and whether the lessor might simply abandon it as the profits would have long been realized. If the lessor removes and resells the system, they would be subject to depreciation recapture tax costs. I'm of the opinion that any uncertainty at lease end is far offset by the bird-in-the-hand of much lower upfront cost vs purchase. YMMV. The purchase price you were quoted sounds like pre-rebate and tax incentives. The net cost to you would therefore be much less but depending on your income and tax situation, you may not be able to take the tax credit all in one year. I assume the APS current rebate of $1 per watt would apply to the whole system and not be limited so that's worth $13.2K. Federal tax credit of about $15K and state tax credit of $1K. IIRC, APS will issue you a 1099 for that rebate so I suspect it's taxable to you.

While all leases have a means of dealing with the sale of your home, typically they either require the buyer to take over the lease obligations or have you purchase the system at FMV during closing. AFAIAA, there is no iron-clad guarantee that the lessor will agree to the lease assumption by just any buyer. Not all leases will actually insure your system against loss so you might have to deal with an added homeowner's insurance cost for it to be covered.

I went with the Sunpower lease through a local firm. Sunpower panels are well-regarded and the company is backed up by Total Petroleum. It has the added advantage of a special one-time buyout option in year 7 of the lease. Plus, the FMV amounts when you sell your home are spelled out. BTW, APS is just catching up to the explosion in leasing arrangements - they have a new agreement related to leasing that the lessee must sign so read it carefully.

So are you happy with what they have done so far? Their terms are favorable for me. Just curious how the install went and the power so far?

[KRenn]

20 year lease for almost 5k less and a smaller amount of better panels generating more power. Wow.. more to come..

I was thinking $3000 less, that's pretty nice.

[KRenn]

So are you happy with what they have done so far? Their terms are favorable for me. Just curious how the install went and the power so far?

Haven't had any problems thus far, then again I've been working in solar for a few years and I'm OCD about researching and covering every angle so I looked up over a dozen installers...........and finally just decided to get it over with.

[Ian S]

So are you happy with what they have done so far? Their terms are favorable for me. Just curious how the install went and the power so far?

Well, I'm still waiting for the install. The delays have made me very antsy about the whole thing. Supposedly, response to the Sunpower lease has been so great that they haven't been able to supply the panels on a timely basis. All my plans have been prepared, submitted and approved by APS and I've started pushing the installer hard for a date. They assured me that my situation will be on their planning agenda on Monday. Fortunately, there's been no out of pocket expense for me. I don't pay anything until after it's installed. We are running up against an incentive deadline but I confirmed with APS that it can be extended if necessary. Still, I'm nervous; maybe the deal really was too good to be true. I guess I'll know soon enough.

[montanaman]

Thats no good..

[QUOTE=Ian S;42282]Well, I'm still waiting for the install.


I was told 60-90 days from Solar Topps. They seem aggressive in getting started. Guy went out to my house today to look at the set-up. They dont get any money until the system is up and generating. Wonder why so long? What are they telling you?

[Ian S]

[QUOTE=montanaman;42283]

Well, I'm still waiting for the install.


I was told 60-90 days from Solar Topps. They seem aggressive in getting started. Guy went out to my house today to look at the set-up. They dont get any money until the system is up and generating. Wonder why so long? What are they telling you?

They claim panel shortage at least until the last month or so. If I don't get a satisfactory answer on Monday, I'll talk to Sunpower.