Hey there, new to the forum. I got a couple of quotes for solar in my all electric home in the Los Gatos, CA mountains. We have a flat roof home with some shading and limited space. We have a detached garage with a flat roof as well. I guess there is additional cost when installing on flat roofs.
Sunpower has quoted us $37,444 for an 8.5Kw system using 23 of the X22 370W panels mounted on both the home and garage. With the rebate and friends and family discount this comes down to $24,211. Sunpower also said they would not charge me an extra $1700, which is typical for flat foam roof installs.
Cinnamon Solar quoted us $31,777 for a 6.5Kw system using 18 LG NeONR-360Q1C-A5 B-W panels mounted only on the home. After rebate cost is $22,244
I am right in thinking that both of these are really high? Should I spend the extra money on Sunpower since I do have some shading and space limitations? Should I try Solaredge or just any local solar company in my area?
Thanks for any input!
SunPower vs LG Quotes in North California
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If you are on a tiered rate, the first kwhrs you generate are worth a lot more than those extra kwhrs you generate. So your first (say) 6kW may do a lot to reduce your bill - the next 4kW not so much.
Our usage is probably just under 10kW but with a growing family that usage will increase as well.
re: Sunpower being the best - the installer showed me the panels and "explained" that they have better tech (something about connections, heat and front vs back of the panel) and he has Sunpower on his roof. I suppose the good ones are all about the same and indeed, I am skeptical of the degradation rates they quote. Comes down to money and the difference in cost isn't huge. As long as the system works and I can break even in year 5 I'll be happy.
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So you say that paying a little bit to the POCO for the extra power I need is much more cost effective than overbuilding and adding more panels. Our usage is probably just under 10kW but with a growing family that usage will increase as well. The cost of meeting that need more of the time is clipping mid-day. What can I say it's Massachusetts - we live on that green media (but don't discount the health benefits of positive thinking and feeling good about what you're doing and the choices you make!)
re: Sunpower being the best - the installer showed me the panels and "explained" that they have better tech (something about connections, heat and front vs back of the panel) and he has Sunpower on his roof. I suppose the good ones are all about the same and indeed, I am skeptical of the degradation rates they quote. Comes down to money and the difference in cost isn't huge. As long as the system works and I can break even in year 5 I'll be happy.
FWIW, the most long term cost effective way of supplying electrical needs to a residence is usually a mix of use reduction, conservation improvements, conventional POCO power, and finally alternate energy generation - and probably in something of that order in proportions that result in the lowest long term life cycle cost of supplying a current and future anticipated electrical load.
As you wish on oversizing. NOMB. While I believe the way I've learned and studied such things makes flexible sense, it's probably more involved than most folks want to spend time on.
As for your installer explaining things and perhaps hoping you'll infer that he'll be more believable or honest because he has a Sunpower system on his roof and thus perhaps a valid reason for you to perhaps believe him: I too have a Sunpower system on my roof. By my criteria, it's not cost effective for me but that's not why I have it.
Nor do I have Sunpower because the quality is better - it is not, at least not for the premium paid. It's good quality, but no better or more fit for purpose than other equipment that's less expensive. Why I have Sunpower is a long, boring story and explained here in prior posts, but unrelated to (non)cost effectiveness.
Opinions vary, and mine is but one. But, unlike your potential installer, I've got no skin in the game, and only more opinion or conjecture, I suspect I may have a working knowledge about some things related to alternate energy cost effectiveness (or, perhaps more correctly, the lack of cost effectiveness) than your potential installer may be aware of.
Take what you want of the above. Scrap the rest.Leave a comment:
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Since you seem to be asking:
What makes you think Sunpower is worth any premium in the first place ? They are, in the opinion of many informed folks, no better and no more fit for purpose than other quality panels, and less so given the premium paid for Sunpower for no real benefit.
Inverters are usually sized to the array. Learn that some clipping is probably acceptable from an economic standpoint, but oversizing an array relative to annual electrical load is not and usually hurts the economics.
Your $$/your choice, but know that there's more than a small chance, depending on assumptions/guesses about the future used, that a less than 100 % offset of annual load will be more long term cost effective than a 100% or greater offset. In spite of what solar peddlers and the green media will imply as a given and done deal (those sneaky devils), more PV generation capacity is not necessarily better from a long term economic standpoint.
On what you call overengineering: That's more like oversizing or building for excess generating capacity, not overengineering. Your money to spend, but if you're as concerned about cost effectiveness as you seem to write, why so much oversize ? Learn how your POCO rates are affected by usage (or lack of it via conservation) and something called LCOE or other life cycle costing method. Then learn how to optimize an array size for best (lowest) long term cost. Then find a system size and price/STC watt that minimizes that LCOE to meet the goal of supplying your long term electrical loads as you see fit.
re: Sunpower being the best - the installer showed me the panels and "explained" that they have better tech (something about connections, heat and front vs back of the panel) and he has Sunpower on his roof. I suppose the good ones are all about the same and indeed, I am skeptical of the degradation rates they quote. Comes down to money and the difference in cost isn't huge. As long as the system works and I can break even in year 5 I'll be happy.Leave a comment:
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Anyone have any thoughts on over-engineering ie. building more capacity than you can use.
The POCO limits us to 10kW to get 100% for net metering. I'm planning on using a 10kW inverter to keep us under that and not be downgraded. It has been suggested to overbuild by ~10% in terms of generating capacity so that even when the sun isn't at peak I'd still be making my 10kW.
Estimates for Sunpower E series are about $3.45/kW with a string inverter and about $3.30 with Panasonic panels. Competing quote from a less established installer is around $3.10/kW using Panasonic. We're in New England. High local power rates. Repayment after taxes is around 5-6a. difference being probably about 4 months of power consumption.
From what I'm reading it's most important to go with a trusted and experienced dealer/installer.
Many suggest that Sunpower are fine but not much better than other panels. Is this price difference within the accepted margin to go for the Sunpower or would people just save the 4%.
What makes you think Sunpower is worth any premium in the first place ? They are, in the opinion of many informed folks, no better and no more fit for purpose than other quality panels, and less so given the premium paid for Sunpower for no real benefit.
Inverters are usually sized to the array. Learn that some clipping is probably acceptable from an economic standpoint, but oversizing an array relative to annual electrical load is not and usually hurts the economics.
Your $$/your choice, but know that there's more than a small chance, depending on assumptions/guesses about the future used, that a less than 100 % offset of annual load will be more long term cost effective than a 100% or greater offset. In spite of what solar peddlers and the green media will imply as a given and done deal (those sneaky devils), more PV generation capacity is not necessarily better from a long term economic standpoint.
On what you call overengineering: That's more like oversizing or building for excess generating capacity, not overengineering. Your money to spend, but if you're as concerned about cost effectiveness as you seem to write, why so much oversize ? Learn how your POCO rates are affected by usage (or lack of it via conservation) and something called LCOE or other life cycle costing method. Then learn how to optimize an array size for best (lowest) long term cost. Then find a system size and price/STC watt that minimizes that LCOE to meet the goal of supplying your long term electrical loads as you see fit.Leave a comment:
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Originally posted by ay79Anyone have any thoughts on over-engineering ie. building more capacity than you can use?
The POCO limits us to 10kW to get 100% for net metering. I'm planning on using a 10kW inverter to keep us under that and not be downgraded. It has been suggested to overbuild by ~10% in terms of generating capacity so that even when the sun isn't at peak I'd still be making my 10kW.
Estimates for Sunpower E series are about $3.45/kW with a string inverter and about $3.30 with Panasonic panels. Competing quote from a less established installer is around $3.10/kW using Panasonic. We're in New England. High local power rates.
and cool the house with 15KW. If your inverter is limited to 10KW output, there are ways to increase total
energy collected. Common practice is to raise the panel DC rating perhaps 20% over the AC rating. Clouds
will often drop output to 10 or 25% of clear sky peak. With a simple string inverter system, adding more
strings can bring that up proportionately. But facing all those panels south will produce a clear sky peak
that will be lost to clipping at the inverter rating. The solution to THAT here is tilt those panels to the east
and the west to get more even power over the day, increased early and late but lowered mid day. See one
power curve here, but this generally only works with simple string systems, with a ground mount permitting
varied panel orientation. Your partners may not approve. Bruce Roe
NScurve.jpgLeave a comment:
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Anyone have any thoughts on over-engineering ie. building more capacity than you can use.
The POCO limits us to 10kW to get 100% for net metering. I'm planning on using a 10kW inverter to keep us under that and not be downgraded. It has been suggested to overbuild by ~10% in terms of generating capacity so that even when the sun isn't at peak I'd still be making my 10kW.
Estimates for Sunpower E series are about $3.45/kW with a string inverter and about $3.30 with Panasonic panels. Competing quote from a less established installer is around $3.10/kW using Panasonic. We're in New England. High local power rates. Repayment after taxes is around 5-6a. difference being probably about 4 months of power consumption.
From what I'm reading it's most important to go with a trusted and experienced dealer/installer.
Many suggest that Sunpower are fine but not much better than other panels. Is this price difference within the accepted margin to go for the Sunpower or would people just save the 4%.Leave a comment:
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I have a Sunpower quote for a 5 KW system for about $21K prior to rebate. I'd like to get it down to $3.50/watt if that is a decent price in the bay area. But that would be ~$4K drop. I might even be OK $3.75 per watt given the labor costs in the bay area. How do I get them there with a quality installer? OP - Can you please provide some guidance to the vendor you eventually selected.Leave a comment:
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I have a Sunpower quote for a 5 KW system for about $21K prior to rebate. I'd like to get it down to $3.50/watt if that is a decent price in the bay area. But that would be ~$4K drop. I might even be OK $3.75 per watt given the labor costs in the bay area. How do I get them there with a quality installer? OP - Can you please provide some guidance to the vendor you eventually selected.
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Think about it from two perspectives. Your own, as in what real benefit do you gain by revealing price ?; and from the vendor's perspective: You are given something that, as a seller, you want and need, and that will will help you sell for the highest price available with no uncertainty.
Besides, you're getting screwed on price at $4+/W anyway. Before you start any negotiating, you can do much better by maybe a buck/STC watt and still get quality and reliability. Just get off the high priced panel wagon and educate yourself.
Take what you want of the above. Scrap the rest.Leave a comment:
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Thank you! I am also thinking I'll try using that $2,000 rebate from Sunpower as a reason to get a better deal from the local installer. Can't hurt to try.Leave a comment:
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I'm in a similar situation - also in Northern CA. I got quotes from both Sunpower and a reputable local installer who wants to put on LG panels. I don't currently have an absolutely equivalent bid, but here's what I have:
1. Sunpower from Sunpower Direct
15 * X21, 350 watts
$23,101 before tax credit
2. Local installer
16 * LG360W
16 * SMA America microinverter
$24,921 before tax credit
I can currently get a $2,000 rebate from Sunpower because I know an employee. That is very attractive. However, I've been reading a bit about Sunpower on this forum and I now have concerns about:
- whether their microinverters are a bad idea
- whether it's a bad idea to get my system installed by the same folks who make it, because if they go out of business I am SOL, with neither an installer nor a manufacturer to turn to
For context, I have a roof with no shade.
It is more important to me to get a system I can trust than it is to save a few $.
Thoughts?
Panels are a commodity these days as are most other PV system components . Both of those are good equipment, but no better or more reliable than lots of others of equal quality and reliability. Unless you've got some unusual conditions, you've been quoted prices that are WAY too much. A system with quality components, installed by a competent local electrical contractor that's been around since way before solar can most likely put a system on your roof that will provide reliable service for as long as you're likely to own it for closer to $3.00 - $3.50/STC Watt - not the $4.30 - $4.40 or so that you're thinking about.
Also, if your worried about reliability, string inverters have much less in the way of parts to fail and are simpler. Plus, with no shade, you have no need or advantage to micros.
Get more quotes for other paneled systems using string inverters. You'll pay less and get equal or better quality and reliability.Leave a comment:
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I'm in a similar situation - also in Northern CA. I got quotes from both Sunpower and a reputable local installer who wants to put on LG panels. I don't currently have an absolutely equivalent bid, but here's what I have:
1. Sunpower from Sunpower Direct
15 * X21, 350 watts
$23,101 before tax credit
2. Local installer
16 * LG360W
16 * SMA America microinverter
$24,921 before tax credit
I can currently get a $2,000 rebate from Sunpower because I know an employee. That is very attractive. However, I've been reading a bit about Sunpower on this forum and I now have concerns about:
- whether their microinverters are a bad idea
- whether it's a bad idea to get my system installed by the same folks who make it, because if they go out of business I am SOL, with neither an installer nor a manufacturer to turn to
For context, I have a roof with no shade.
It is more important to me to get a system I can trust than it is to save a few $.
Thoughts?Leave a comment:
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Hi, I live in bay area, North California, and am looking for a 3.5kW solar system. Here are the best 2 quotes I received:
1. SunPower, from SunPower Direct
10 * X22-360-C-AC: 3.6kW total.
$3.95/W before tax credit. Net Cost $2.77/W after tax credit.
2. LG Neon R, from a reputable local installer
10 * LG350Q1C-A5: 3.5kW total.
10 * Enphase IQ 6+ micro inverter
$3.42/W before tax credit. Net Cost $2.40/W after tax credit.
I'm wondering if I should continue negotiating the price, or they seems about right.
Note:
I also quoted LG Neon 2 and Panasonic, they are about the same price as Neon R. I had a feeling that panel cost is no longer the major contributor here, but installation/labor cost is. Therefore choosing a cheaper panel will not save much, at least in bay area.
To my surprise, SolarEdge+optimizer actually cost more than Enphase micro invertor, since my system is small.
Hey! Can you tell me which installer in NorCal is giving you the $3.42/W rate fir the LG Nein RLeave a comment:
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