SunCap Financial Lease, too good to be true?

[Ian S]

Most likely from a local installer who won't be around to honor that buyout or the warranty. The only ones I've seen offer it for a dollar are local installers, demanding 50-100% upfront and taking 4-10 months to install.

Aren't you the gloomy gus! Yes, they're a local firm that's been doing exclusively solar for a couple of decades and are a SunPower dealer although that particular deal is not for a SunPower system. The odds are I'll go the SunPower route and consider buying after six years: total outlay including the buyout would be $7500 for a 6.9 kW system. That's FAR less than I could buy that system for even after all the incentives and spreading the tax credits over a couple of years of my modest income. I know it must gall some people to realize that their purchased systems cost way more in $$ and hassle than a prepaid lease but that's just life.

[KRenn]

Aren't you the gloomy gus! Yes, they're a local firm that's been doing exclusively solar for a couple of decades and are a SunPower dealer although that particular deal is not for a SunPower system. The odds are I'll go the SunPower route and consider buying after six years: total outlay including the buyout would be $7500 for a 6.9 kW system. That's FAR less than I could buy that system for even after all the incentives and spreading the tax credits over a couple of years of my modest income. I know it must gall some people to realize that their purchased systems cost way more in $$ and hassle than a prepaid lease but that's just life.

No I'm just being realistic based on what I've seen. Let me guess, this local installer wants 100% of the money up-front? What happens if they crash and burn before they install your system? You go to your state agency, they say "sorry, we only keep a limited amount of cash on hand for each company and Mr and Mrs so-so and so and so already used all the available funds, tough luck.

They can't give you a firm install date but instead give you a wide installation range? They offer no insurance on the system and pretty much only the manufacturer's warranty? I've seen it in several places, these companies are perpeptually starved for cash and will have to sell another 2-3 systems just to have the money to install your system. Some might call it a Ponzi scheme but they've already had several of these installers crash and burn in California. Its too much burden for any single company to handle.


As far as buying from SunPower or SunCap, these companies don't require money up-front typically and you can pay after installation, knowing full well that you have a good system installed. I would have no problem doing a prepaid lease with either one of them. Solid financial portfolio's, the ability to handle all the financial and legal leg-work that leasing requires. Can't go wrong with either one.

Also any installer that claims to have been around since the 90s, well I would take their claims with a big grain of salt. The solar industry is overrun with these shenanigans of companies saying "well, the guy I'm basing my electric license off of has had it since 1988 so hence we have been in business since 1988." I've seen dozens of companies claim to have been around since the 90s, 80s and even 70s but when you actual trace their history in the records, their claims fall far short.

You can verify the veracity of these claims by going to your state corporate registry and seeing what date they opened shop as far as the state is concerned. That will give you an accurate portrayal and if the company claims that they did business under another name back then, you can obviously verify that as well.

Not to discourage anyone but I've seen more shameless, bold-faced liars in the solar industry than you can imagine.

[Naptown]

With a pre-paid lease it sounds fine to me. The company stays... and has to honor the warranty and everything else. They go under.... and I get my solar system free and clear at the discounted pre-paid lease price. Even more reason to go the pre-paid lease route. It's a win win either way.

Except that your warranty is gone, you are looking at an inverter replacement, the remaining Srecs are gone and the courts are still looking at the property on your roof as an asset to the leasing company. You have to think through every single even remote possibility of what can happen.
hey I've been there and done that.
Who said he who ignores history is doomed to repeat it?

[Ian S]

Also any installer that claims to have been around since the 90s,

Well, I've checked and they have. They are also a SunPower Elite Dealer so they would be doing my SunPower prepaid installation. I also have a friend who did due diligence several years ago and bought from this same firm and recommended them. I'd be getting essentially the same system only larger.

[KRenn]

Well, I've checked and they have. They are also a SunPower Elite Dealer so they would be doing my SunPower prepaid installation. I also have a friend who did due diligence several years ago and bought from this same firm and recommended them. I'd be getting essentially the same system only larger.

Wanna put some money on the line? I'll be glad to accept a bet and do quick legwork So far I'm undefeated in this challenge. Let me know what the name of the installer is and the state and I'll have an answer for you in 5 minutes.

[KRenn]

Except that your warranty is gone, you are looking at an inverter replacement, the remaining Srecs are gone and the courts are still looking at the property on your roof as an asset to the leasing company. You have to think through every single even remote possibility of what can happen.
hey I've been there and done that.
Who said he who ignores history is doomed to repeat it?

I believe that was George Santayana good sir.

[Ian S]

Wanna put some money on the line? I'll be glad to accept a bet and do quick legwork So far I'm undefeated in this challenge. Let me know what the name of the installer is and the state and I'll have an answer for you in 5 minutes.

Money on the line to some anonymous yahoo on the internet? LOL!

[cebury]

Thanks to everyone participating in this thread. It has been very helpful to me in considering a pre-paid lease and especially the newer Sunpower 6yr pre-paid lease.

Yahoo or not, KRenn's posts were also very helpful. And ditto for Russ whether he has something against leases or not. I always enjoy hearing both sides of the debate because it helps me know where the risks are, even though none of us know what the chances of said risk will be now or in the future, with company A or B.

Thanks again.

[KRenn]

Money on the line to some anonymous yahoo on the internet? LOL!

I can tell you that going by Sunpower's own website, they don't have a single of their dealers listed as having been in business since 1994, so that right there makes the claim sound dubious.

The only two Elite dealers in Arizona are as follows.

Perfect Power, Inc.
Elite

Founded in 1998, Perfect Power is the only Arizona-based company to specialize in designing high-performance solar power systems optimized for the state's climate.

Sun Valley Solar Solutions
Elite

Sun Valley Solar Solutions, Arizona's most trusted solar electric installer, offers custom-designed, professionally-installed solar systems with a 100 percent satisfaction guarantee.


Neither is registered with the state as having been in business before 2004. You can see for yourself.

http://starpas.azcc.gov/scripts/cgiip.exe/WService=wsbroker1/main.p

As far as the BBB goes, one claims at the BBB that they've been around since 2006, which seems to be accurate, the other claims to have been around since 2000. Interesting.

Both companies had their corporate articles published in 2004 and 2006 respectively. So whatever one is claiming 1994 might be fibbing you just a tad.


Then again I know a company in Oregon that claims to have been doing solar for almost 40 years because that is when the founder got his college degree in environmental sciences......and then 3 decades later actually started the company. So it could be worst, but when it comes to the solar industry....."don't trust, verify, and then verify some more."

[Heather(CA)]

JMO, but I am not a fan of any lease program, why not buy then after 15 year you own the system. Lease's are for a middle man to make money...

[Ian S]

I can tell you that going by Sunpower's own website, they don't have a single of their dealers listed as having been in business since 1994, so that right there makes the claim sound dubious.

The only two Elite dealers in Arizona are as follows.

Perfect Power, Inc.
Elite

Founded in 1998, Perfect Power is the only Arizona-based company to specialize in designing high-performance solar power systems optimized for the state's climate.

Sun Valley Solar Solutions
Elite

Sun Valley Solar Solutions, Arizona's most trusted solar electric installer, offers custom-designed, professionally-installed solar systems with a 100 percent satisfaction guarantee.


Neither is registered with the state as having been in business before 2004. You can see for yourself.

http://starpas.azcc.gov/scripts/cgiip.exe/WService=wsbroker1/main.p

As far as the BBB goes, one claims at the BBB that they've been around since 2006, which seems to be accurate, the other claims to have been around since 2000. Interesting.

Both companies had their corporate articles published in 2004 and 2006 respectively. So whatever one is claiming 1994 might be fibbing you just a tad.

Of course, there could have been predecessor companies and even a sole proprietorship which would never have been registered with the Corporation Commission. In any event, I think you've convinced me not to go solar at this time. I'm definitely not prepared to front the total cost of purchasing and wait for a few years to recoup tax credits and rebates. I had thought the prepaid lease might be an attractive alternative but so many people here have poo-pooed it that it probably would be a mistake. I'll continue to follow the technology though as it probably has a future just not appropriate right now for many of us non-experts.

[cebury]

I had thought the prepaid lease might be an attractive alternative but so many people here have poo-pooed it that it probably would be a mistake.

If you are already sure Solar vs. No-solar numbers work for you (largely based on location, incentives, and your kwh usage) you should reconsider. I feel bad for you Ian, because I too had to adjust to the strong opinions on this site. If you read posts from before May2011 many of the same posters in the thread were big pooers on leases. It seems competition (or other financial benefits available to lessors) have changed enough that legit leases, especially pre-paid ones (with the right clauses in them like warranty, insurance, etc from a solid company) are not fodder and easily discredited as they were just recently.

Those making one-liner posts like "leases never work" are not aware of the new ones or they don't work in their specific situation or have some other agenda. These are not the same as car or appliance leases. Those are targeted mostly to the wealthy or the poor who usually get shafted financially, but even car leases are the right financial decision for some people.

To those making posts like "who do you think is going to make money? the leasing company, that's who": Well of course. They should make money, so should the installer, the manufacturer and everyone other for-profit entity involved in the process. We need to ferret out the few that are scams or those which aren't competitive in their market (getting multiple quotes).

My wife and I have been waiting for the other shoe to drop on the "is this too good to be true" for Solar in general. Every buy proposal we've seen makes financial sense in almost every way, being in the black from year 1 and paying for itself in 7yrs or so. Then leases are proposed and we're even more suspicious and looking into *all* the numbers, equipment, vendors, and programs available.

It turns out, there was no Gotcha, no scam, nothing we missed in our proposals. And all the installers (except maybe one) we've been quoted from are being honest and we trust to do good work. This site has helped tremendously, but it took some emotional fortitude sifting through it all.

The pre-paid lease (from a solid company) v. buy (low interest loan) isn't a choice of win vs. lose for us. They are both profitable to us since the solar go v. no-go numbers already work out. Maybe that's the case for you, too?

[russ]

Leases have changed dramatically the past two years - the first ones I saw were lousy with everything in favor of the leasing company.

Market forces have forced the leasing companies to straighten out their act which is a good thing.

Any purchase or lease is a choice of the individual - they just need to go into it with eyes wide open as there is a lot of money involved. If anyone does not think the leasing company has you tied up neatly they are sadly mistaken. Possible case - you get a transfer one year after installation - now you have a PV system on the roof which may or may not make your home easier to sell in an already lousy market. Your home sits empty for a year or two waiting for a buyer - you are still paying the electric bill.

I would prefer to see the leasing companies getting into solar thermal hot water and warm air - more benefit for the general public if not as sexy.

[cebury]

That's not moderating, that's acting like the Taliban.

Although I can see why you and others feel that way, my only comment on the personalities of those involved was to say they had strong opinions. To their credit, and the line I had in my head but left out in the long ramble above, was they acknowledged these leases were much better ones. The clause I left out was:

the same posters in the thread were big pooers on leases, but have since made much more positive comments about the newer leases, esp. pre-paid ones.

I don't care if someone continually bashes an option/product or has strongly worded opinions, as long as they include the reasons for their point of view. Except for a couple, the folks I was thinking of did share their reasons in the thread (though not in every post). The others had shared their opinions (many times) although in different threads. Determining whether they were blowing smoke or just sick of repeating was the part requiring me to sift through many other threads.

But yeah, it can really affect those who don't have the time nor fortitude to interpret a debate based on logical merits -- most people coming to a debate are influenced by the # of supporters or energy expressed from a given side.

[KRenn]

If you are already sure Solar vs. No-solar numbers work for you (largely based on location, incentives, and your kwh usage) you should reconsider. I feel bad for you Ian, because I too had to adjust to the strong opinions on this site. If you read posts from before May2011 many of the same posters in the thread were big pooers on leases. It seems competition (or other financial benefits available to lessors) have changed enough that legit leases, especially pre-paid ones (with the right clauses in them like warranty, insurance, etc from a solid company) are not fodder and easily discredited as they were just recently.

Those making one-liner posts like "leases never work" are not aware of the new ones or they don't work in their specific situation or have some other agenda. These are not the same as car or appliance leases. Those are targeted mostly to the wealthy or the poor who usually get shafted financially, but even car leases are the right financial decision for some people.

To those making posts like "who do you think is going to make money? the leasing company, that's who": Well of course. They should make money, so should the installer, the manufacturer and everyone other for-profit entity involved in the process. We need to ferret out the few that are scams or those which aren't competitive in their market (getting multiple quotes).

My wife and I have been waiting for the other shoe to drop on the "is this too good to be true" for Solar in general. Every buy proposal we've seen makes financial sense in almost every way, being in the black from year 1 and paying for itself in 7yrs or so. Then leases are proposed and we're even more suspicious and looking into *all* the numbers, equipment, vendors, and programs available.

It turns out, there was no Gotcha, no scam, nothing we missed in our proposals. And all the installers (except maybe one) we've been quoted from are being honest and we trust to do good work. This site has helped tremendously, but it took some emotional fortitude sifting through it all.

The pre-paid lease (from a solid company) v. buy (low interest loan) isn't a choice of win vs. lose for us. They are both profitable to us since the solar go v. no-go numbers already work out. Maybe that's the case for you, too?

The leases have definitely changed. The ones that were available 2 years ago were absolute garbage. The leases that are available today have improved dramatically. I'm always biased towards purchase but you know what, even on a prepaid lease, your rate of return is going to be well over 15%. As an investment, its not a bad way to go and when you're looking at overall financial return, on a purchased system you have to figure in inverter-replacement down the road and a wide variety of assorted costs. If you have a prepaid lease, then at least you are eliminating that portion of the equation and for 20 years you're simply saving.


My intent isn't to discourage anyone at all, whether lease or purchase, there's a lot of great opportunities out there but after having been in this industry for awhile, there's a lot of scammers and a lot of flat out liars out there also. The thing you have to do as a consumer is to look at all the numbers and ask the following questions:


1. How long does your install time take compared to the competition? What install time can you GUARANTEE me? Most companies will give you a timeline of 2-8 months for install but that usually means you're closer to the 8 than the 2. Ask specifically for a guaranteed install date, maybe +/- 2-3 weeks. For a company that has their stuff together, that shouldn't be a major stretch at all. I've found out that this question tends to ferret out a lot of the crap companies who are perpetually running low on cash and having to sell deal after deal just to be able to afford to install the systems they sold 2-3 months prior.

2. Ask them about their roofing approach. If you spend a bunch of money to go solar and then your roof leaks because the jackals didn't know what the hell they were doing or didn't care, you're not saving any money. Ask about their roofing warranty, you're drilling holes in my roof, are you backing that up with anything? Most companies will offer 1-2 years on the leak warranty, some will offer as much as 5 which is optimal.

3. How does the payment schedule work? Don't pay any money upfront on a prepaid lease. The bigger companies are fine with you paying on the back end, the small-time scam operations want all your money upfront. If the installer asks for 100% before they've done anything, don't walk away, RUN!

4. If your company goes out of business, who maintains my system?

5. What does the insurance on this lease specifically cover, what does it not cover?

6. Every solar lease includes an easement of sorts. Which makes sense, if I'm handing you a $50,000 piece of equipment, I want to be able to have access to it. Just verify with the salesperson where the easement clause is located in the contract and make sure to check that language. Most of it is pretty similar and standard but I've seen a couple lesser-known leases with really goofy clauses.

7. Also look for contradictory language, if there's two sections to the lease contract and one states specifically that it "supersedes all other documents", compare the two to see where any possible contradictions might lie.

8. The power production guarantee is typically crap. The leasing companies make it so conservative that it really isn't a big deal but do make sure you understand the specifics of it. Also having a power production guarantee is an important metric of determining when something is wrong with the system. If your system is malfunctioning and underperforming as a result, the leasing company has incentive to get it fixed up before it starts costing them money.