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  • 7,752 Solar Panels installed + 3 Acres = Costs How Much?

    EDIT: Oops ...a special character truncated my message, so I get a "do-over" see below ...

    2.4 MW New York solar array expected to provide 73% of county office

    https://www.solarpowerworldonline.co...-energy-needs/

    The COST ?
    NOTHING !

    "... No cost to Madison County tax payers ..."

    How can that be?
    Because the State of New York paid almost $1 Million using State tax payer money to fund this project.
    So, everyone in New York paid for this project, including tax payers in Madison County.
    The population of Madison County accounts for less than 0.1% of the State of New York's population.
    Good for Madison County, unfair to every other citizen.
    So, now what if the huge Counties in New York want a proportional (huge) sized PV Array - who will pay for that?

    They never state the Total Cost, only the Grant = $974,616,00

    The details of PPA does not state how much Madison County will pay per month for the next 25 years.

    7,752 X 309.5 Watt Solar Panels to power County Office Building & the County Jail.

    Monthly Payments (based off savings)
    ==============
    $16,666 = Before
    $06,666 = After
    -------------------------
    $10,000 = Savings of $3 Million over 25 years.

    So, RER Energy Group ( using a $1 Million Grant ) can sell PV Power to Madison County for significantly less than AEP sells it.
    Last edited by NEOH; 10-20-2017, 10:47 AM.

  • #2
    Without any rebates or support from city, state or federal agencies I would say around $1 to $1.50/watt.

    That would not include the land or any leasing for the land.

    Comment


    • #3
      I am trying to figure out ... how RER Energy Group can make enough a profit to support their business - long term?

      $2,400,000 = 2.4 Megawatts x $1.00/watt
      - $974,616 = Grant
      ==========================
      $1,425,000 = RER Energy Out of pocket cost

      So, clearly without the Free Grant Money ...
      RER Energy would never spend $2.4 Million to collect $2 Million over 25 years - a losing deal.

      But with $1 Million Grant + $2 Million income ( $6,666 monthly payment by Madison County x 12 month x 25 years )
      RER Energy Group makes makes $570,000 profit over 25 years = $20,000 per year ?
      That is not enough to employ one person this year, and impossible in 25 years.
      Maybe, RER Energy gets a 30% Federal Tax Credit - a one time cash infusion.

      Secondly, what is the the new Rate per KWHr for the Madison County County Office Building & Jail ?
      It must must be extremely low, to under-cut AEP very low Commercial Rate.
      Previously, Madison County was paying only $0.06 / KWHr to AEP
      Now Madison County pays $0.02 / KWHr to RER Energy Group ?
      About $6,000 per month = 2,400 KWH x 4 Hours/day x 30 Days x $0.02/KWHr.

      Once the Free Grant Money and the 30% Federal Tax Credit disappear, I do not see how RER Energy Group can stay in business.
      Last edited by NEOH; 10-20-2017, 10:55 AM.

      Comment


      • #4
        Originally posted by NEOH View Post
        Maybe, RER Energy gets a 30% Federal Tax Credit - a one time cash infusion.
        I would expect they do - why wouldn't they?

        Originally posted by NEOH View Post
        Once the Free Grant Money and the 30% Federal Tax Credit disappear, I do not see how RER Energy Group can stay in business.
        1> cost per DC watt will go down.
        2> they'll raise their $/kwh rate to where they are still profitable.

        If they can't do #2, then they'll stop doing new projects. The business will still exist, but will just be collecting money from existing installations.

        Comment


        • #5
          How will the Cost per DC Watt go down, for this array?
          All of the costs are known and fixed, and so is the income.
          Rising labor costs & repair costs will be ongoing.

          RER Energy has a locked price via the PPA with Madison County for the next 25 Years.
          This entire array of 7,752 PV Panels, is solely for the Madison County Office Building and Jail - nobody else.

          The State of New York granted RER Energy about $1 Million
          Next year the Federal Government will "grant" RER Energy about $1/2 Million (tax credit).
          RER Energy gets essentially a lump sum payment $1.5 Million from the governments.
          The actual COST of Madison County's monthly electric bill has just been re-distributed across every person in New York and the USA.
          This "works" short-term because everyone else, except Madison County, has paid a huge portion of Madison County's electric bill upfront.

          The State & Federal Governments should not be selecting winners and losers in the energy industry.
          How can AEP compete with this government subsidized "RER" electricity?
          And "RER" can use AEP's' electrical grid infrastructure for FREE, to distribute any excess energy.

          What if the government subsidized your competitor, which allowed them to sell the same product at 1/3rd the cost of your price?

          RER Energy is not-a regulated utility.

          Comment


          • #6
            Originally posted by NEOH View Post
            How will the Cost per DC Watt go down, for this array?
            A> it won't.
            B> That's not relevant to whether RER stays in business.

            You doubted whether RER will stay in business if the subsidies end - I was pointing out that FUTURE installations will have the cost decrease, therefore less subsidies would be necessary.

            All of the costs are known and fixed, and so is the income.
            Rising labor costs & repair costs will be ongoing.
            Labor costs and repair costs?
            You don't think that the array owner has a good estimate on the ongoing costs for the array and will continue to make a profit off of the array in years 11-25?
            I'm sure they will.

            RER Energy has a locked price via the PPA with Madison County for the next 25 Years.
            There's a good chance that "locked price" is a low $.02/kwh (or whatever) to start with and then goes up 3% (or some percentage) every single year.


            Next year the Federal Government will "grant" RER Energy about $1/2 Million (tax credit).
            Is it going to be put in service next year or this year?
            Whichever year it goes in service will be the year they get an ITC of about 30% (my guess is close to $1M for this)

            RER Energy gets essentially a lump sum payment $1.5 Million from the governments.
            The grant would be a payment - the ITC is a credit - so more of an avoidance of paying $1M to the feds. (not quite a payment - but really close)

            The actual COST of Madison County's monthly electric bill has just been re-distributed across every person in New York and the USA.
            This "works" short-term because everyone else, except Madison County, has paid a huge portion of Madison County's electric bill upfront.
            The State & Federal Governments should not be selecting winners and losers in the energy industry.
            How can AEP compete with this government subsidized "RER" electricity?
            AEP and every other company can take advantage of the same subsidies.
            IN fact AEP *IS* the company that is getting these subsidies. (hadn't realized that before I reread the article just now)
            From the article:"The owner of the solar installation and the entity that will be selling the power to Madison County is AEP OnSite Partners."

            I would guess RER is their contractor. (probably the entity who will do logistics and hire subcontractor to do the physical work)

            RER Energy is not-a regulated utility.
            Neither is AEP. What's your point?

            If you think this is unfair to the utilities, talk to your congressman about changing the laws. Personally I think it's a reasonable subsidy to build up solar power industry and is having very little impact on the electric companies (not much power is solar - so the electric companies aren't losing much revenue/profit. And since they're regulated and a monopoly, if their profits go down they get to raise the amount they charge to make it up.

            Comment


            • #7
              Originally posted by NEOH View Post
              I am trying to figure out ... how RER Energy Group can make enough a profit to support their business - long term?

              $2,400,000 = 2.4 Megawatts x $1.00/watt
              - $974,616 = Grant
              ==========================
              $1,425,000 = RER Energy Out of pocket cost

              So, clearly without the Free Grant Money ...
              RER Energy would never spend $2.4 Million to collect $2 Million over 25 years - a losing deal.

              But with $1 Million Grant + $2 Million income ( $6,666 monthly payment by Madison County x 12 month x 25 years )
              RER Energy Group makes makes $570,000 profit over 25 years = $20,000 per year ?
              That is not enough to employ one person this year, and impossible in 25 years.
              Maybe, RER Energy gets a 30% Federal Tax Credit - a one time cash infusion.

              Secondly, what is the the new Rate per KWHr for the Madison County County Office Building & Jail ?
              It must must be extremely low, to under-cut AEP very low Commercial Rate.
              Previously, Madison County was paying only $0.06 / KWHr to AEP
              Now Madison County pays $0.02 / KWHr to RER Energy Group ?
              About $6,000 per month = 2,400 KWH x 4 Hours/day x 30 Days x $0.02/KWHr.

              Once the Free Grant Money and the 30% Federal Tax Credit disappear, I do not see how RER Energy Group can stay in business.
              The sad part is most of systems being reported installed by cities or companies only provide the "savings" information but never mention the installed price before or after rebates and grants. IMO a number of those system really would not save money if a grant or rebate wasn't included. So where does the money come for those grants. Out of the public's pocket.

              But hey they are getting a lot of good publicity going "green"

              Comment


              • #8
                Originally posted by foo1bar View Post

                If you think this is unfair to the utilities, talk to your congressman about changing the laws. Personally I think it's a reasonable subsidy to build up solar power industry and is having very little impact on the electric companies (not much power is solar - so the electric companies aren't losing much revenue/profit. And since they're regulated and a monopoly, if their profits go down they get to raise the amount they charge to make it up.
                Yes, I have contacted my congressman, and no I don't need you to tell me to do that.

                *IF* AEP profits go down?
                They just lost $5 Million in revenue from Madison County.
                And they will continue to lose revenue, with each and every government subsidized PV Panel system installed.
                And, no I do not want AEP to "just raise their price, to make up" - What nonsense is that?

                So, the cost of this PV System just gets shifted from Madison County, to everyone else, including AEP customers.

                You just made my point ...
                The tax payer never saves any money, the costs are always shifted around, like a shell game.

                Comment


                • #9
                  Originally posted by NEOH View Post
                  *IF* AEP profits go down?
                  They just lost $5 Million in revenue from Madison County.
                  Uh, No, they didn't.
                  They GAINED millions in revenue from Madison county.
                  They're the solar farm owner and other side Madison County's PPA.

                  So, the cost of this PV System just gets shifted from Madison County, to everyone else
                  Well, the numbers we know are:
                  Estimated $3M in lower costs for Madison County over 25 years.
                  $974K in grant money
                  Guesstimate of $750k in Federal ITC
                  And lets guesstimate $400K in lost profit for the POCO (8% on $5M in revenue; And we don't know that the $5M (over 25 years) is right but lets assume that you made a good guess.)

                  So even if we back out the costs that are distributed to others, there would still be savings.

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    Even though I do not have any additional information, I pass this every week on my way to the dump and I am one of the Madison County residents who is not getting charged for this. Base idea is if it is a PPA how is it free in the first place?

                    Comment

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