SolarCity 20-year lease too good to be true?

[KRenn]

They are really pushing the PPA. I simply get annoyed with the sales tactics. I already cancel 2 meetings. Screw them and their sales pitch. I know what I want.... I just want the freaking quote.

Most leasing companies have quote online/by email feature, if you have
salesmen coming into your home, you have to expect for them to do their
pitch, its a crucial part of their job, so it shouldn't be something to make you
irate, even the best and most honest salespeople will have a certain amount of
BS, just deal with it, if you have any questions, feel free to ask.

[Naptown]

They are really pushing the PPA. I simply get annoyed with the sales tactics. I already cancel 2 meetings. Screw them and their sales pitch. I know what I want.... I just want the freaking quote.

Solar sales is what I do for a living. Although I will give a ballpark range over the phone it is absolutely necessary to visit the site, educate you on the equipment that is available, survey the conditions as far as shading actual roof area ( Google is not that accurate) service size and available space in panel, roof structure for structural engineering etc. When all of this is done you will have a bit more education and a firm quote so that you can make an informed decision with no surprises later on.

We also do not do leasing or PPA's for residential.

[russ]

The home shell is an engineered structure - when you start adding things like solar panels on the roof there are many considerations such as weight, wind load, type of roof etc. That has to be seen to be evaluated.

The orientation of the roof and shading can only be evaluated in person.

Cabling, inverter location etc can add a substantial amount in some cases I suppose. If the electric service has to be upgraded that would be costly.

Anyone that makes a firm quote before a site survey is either an idiot or giving such a high quote that all possibilities are covered. That guy you don't want to deal with.

Russ

[maestroX2]

of course.... the installers gave the quote without even go on top my roof have been eliminated from our list. By end of this month, we'll sign contract. I think I know much more about solar technology than a week before. IMHO, all houses in So Cal should have at least small solar system on their roof. Kind of interesting fact that Europe has more solar demand than us but we do have more solar exposure.

[russ]

Europe -

the German and Spanish governments have spent immense sums on subsidized solar - for little production.

the rest of Europe has done little - the UK just jumped on the bandwagon with gross subsidies but that should end as soon as the annual cost is totaled up.

Russ

[philjamar]

Bottom Line

Each individual must make a decision based on their needs. Frankly, this thread is full of BS. Why would anyone listen to a moderator from Turkey over a local licensed contractor?

Companies like Solar City, Sungevity, SunRun, SunCap all offer a choice for the consumer. Do I take my cash and invest in purchasing a solar system or do I give up return, let the leasing company make the investment and take the risk? There is no guarantee they will make money. You are paying for their estimated default risk. If they are wrong, they lose.

As far a SRECs are concerned. This is a potential revenue stream for any solar system. The leasing companies are factoring this in and hope they will have value. If anything, they are in a better position to capitalize on their value that the individual homeowner.

As a solar integrator, I say buy it if you can afford it but don't pay too much for it. Get three purchase quotes so you know your market. Sleep on your quotes, if the salesman pressures you to sign today to get the special deal, kick them out of your house and cross them off your list. If you don't have the cash or can't get a loan then a lease is worth considering. Again, get three lease quotes. If the salesman doesn't thoroughly answer every question, walk.

If working with a quality local integrator you will be given both purchase and lease options, central or micro inverter choices and panel choices. They will answer all your questions and present with a consultative sales approach. You also have someone to call if you have a problem.

Bottom Line... buying is best for most, but leasing is a viable option. In most cases, both are better than doing nothing. GET THREE QUOTES whether buying or leasing.

[russ]

Maybe because the licensed contractor (I had a General Contractors License in NC for that matter) is blowing smoke. Born and raised in the US and still have citizenship. I have certainly paid one heck of a lot more US taxes than you have dreamed of. Why the concern about my location? You don't even mention your location as being in southern CA.

You have no idea of how money works - the solar leasing companies are using the homeowners credit and cash plus money from the treasury to earn money. The tax payer is providing the solar leasing companies profit.

Solar integrator - does that sound better than solar salesman for some reason - that is all the term means. Maybe for rednecks it is impressive but for most I doubt they are impressed. Maybe the poster just started and is impressed with the term.

Working with a local sales company is always preferable unless one is installing the equipment themselves.

Gee! - all that blowing of smoke and the poster (solar salesman) said nothing different than is always said on this site.

Best Regards,
Russ

[KRenn]

Maybe because the licensed contractor (I had a General Contractors License in NC for that matter) is blowing smoke. Born and raised in the US and still have citizenship. I have certainly paid one heck of a lot more US taxes than you have dreamed of. Why the concern about my location? You don't even mention your location as being in southern CA.

You have no idea of how money works - the solar leasing companies are using the homeowners credit and cash plus money from the treasury to earn money. The tax payer is providing the solar leasing companies profit.

Solar integrator - does that sound better than solar salesman for some reason - that is all the term means. Maybe for rednecks it is impressive but for most I doubt they are impressed. Maybe the poster just started and is impressed with the term.

Working with a local sales company is always preferable unless one is installing the equipment themselves.

Gee! - all that blowing of smoke and the poster (solar salesman) said nothing different than is always said on this site.

Best Regards,
Russ

LOL, very true. I'm not a Salesperson, I'm a Solar Solutions Helper Type Person....err Integrator...etc.



Bottomline, buying is always best, buy the system, own it, its yours, there's no strings attached, I don't know of many people who lease their fridge or their actual roof, why lease the panels?

That said, if the price range is too out there, a prepaid lease is not a bad way to get go as long as you verify everything that is included from the company, what their responsibilities are AND what YOUR responsibilities are(prepaid leases vary in requiring you to provide insurance, to regularly clean the panels, to do various other tasks).


At the bottom is the month to month lease and the only way I'd recommend getting into a month to month agreement is if there's 0% escalator in the deal. That is, you make the same exact payment, year after year, no changes to it, and if the initial savings aren't at least $15 a month, I'd simply say no thanks and walk away from the deal entirely.



That said, people shouldn't act like these leasing companies aren't taking advantage of various tax law technicalities to make this feasible, they jack up the system cost to maximize the 30% tax credit, so now we're essentially having taxpayers foot the bill for these companies to guarantee their investors a 10% return. Its not a very clean business model whatsoever.

[maestroX2]

Lol... I'll take advice from anonymous person who wants to offer "free" help over salesperson any time any day.

[russ]

There are salesmen that are great and willing to look out for your interest as well as their company.

It is up to the buyer to learn enough about their planned purchase to have an understanding whether they are being snowed under or being helped.

Every politician or used car salesman are not bad people either. Unfortunately 95% of them are giving a bad name to the good guys.

Russ

[DriftSpace]

SolarCity Contract

Someone had said something (Russ?) about wanting to see the SolarCity Lease/contract, and other people are asking if it's too good to be true.

Well, after several months of working with a (perfectly pleasant) SolarCity sales representative, I got the contract ... which prompted me to send a huge list of issues I had, and things I would need them to change in order to sign the contract. Suffice it to say that the contract isn't nice.

The big issues I had were:

--There's a clause in the contract which says SolarCIiy owns all "Non-Power" benefits of YOUR system, "into the future," and not just for the duration of the lease. This means tax credits, carbon off-sets, rebates, etc. will ALWAYS go to SolarCity, even if your lease is up.

--The "Limited Warranty" is so limited it actually doesn't cover any damage; only damage specifically caused by SolarCity is paid for by SolarCity; there's a nasty "Force Majeure" clause that basically precludes any financial responsibility on their part, including basically all damage and theft.

--No option to purchase at the contract's end (this apparently has to do with consumer lease law; since there's no standard way of determining the value of a solar-power system, they can't offer you the option)

--You have to continue to pay your monthly payment even if the panels stop working, and even if it takes them months to get a contractor out to fix them, etc.

--You have to "maintain" a high-speed internet connection, and if you do not "maintain" the connection (though there are no details about what period of outage qualifies as not being "maintained") your "performance guarantee" becomes VOID.

--No option to cancel the contract if it takes them a year to install the system, which some people have reported.

There's more, and I can cut-and-paste sections of it if people would like. After this experience I am going to see about getting a loan and just buying the system myself. I'm sure I could get a reasonable monthly rate from a local credit union.

[KRenn]

Someone had said something (Russ?) about wanting to see the SolarCity Lease/contract, and other people are asking if it's too good to be true.

Well, after several months of working with a (perfectly pleasant) SolarCity sales representative, I got the contract ... which prompted me to send a huge list of issues I had, and things I would need them to change in order to sign the contract. Suffice it to say that the contract isn't nice.

The big issues I had were:

--There's a clause in the contract which says SolarCIiy owns all "Non-Power" benefits of YOUR system, "into the future," and not just for the duration of the lease. This means tax credits, carbon off-sets, rebates, etc. will ALWAYS go to SolarCity, even if your lease is up.

--The "Limited Warranty" is so limited it actually doesn't cover any damage; only damage specifically caused by SolarCity is paid for by SolarCity; there's a nasty "Force Majeure" clause that basically precludes any financial responsibility on their part, including basically all damage and theft.

--No option to purchase at the contract's end (this apparently has to do with consumer lease law; since there's no standard way of determining the value of a solar-power system, they can't offer you the option)

--You have to continue to pay your monthly payment even if the panels stop working, and even if it takes them months to get a contractor out to fix them, etc.

--You have to "maintain" a high-speed internet connection, and if you do not "maintain" the connection (though there are no details about what period of outage qualifies as not being "maintained") your "performance guarantee" becomes VOID.

--No option to cancel the contract if it takes them a year to install the system, which some people have reported.

There's more, and I can cut-and-paste sections of it if people would like. After this experience I am going to see about getting a loan and just buying the system myself. I'm sure I could get a reasonable monthly rate from a local credit union.

Those are some great downsides to SolarCity, they have perhaps the most restrictive conditions of any solar leasing outfit and Sungevity is not far behind. Both companies
are currently flying by their knickers, struggling in key areas as their numbers only make sense when rebates or tariffs are high. Put SolarCity against several other leasing options
and they stack up quite poorly. They truly try to take advantage of their name-status to jump on consumers who don't know any better, if a consumer gets a 2nd or third leasing
quote, SolarCity knows they are flat out of luck. Not to mention that the installs can take forever, anywhere from 3-6 months or longer while other companies are up in finished
in 60-90 days and guarantee that if for whatever reason the system isn't up in 6 months, the homeowner is 100% off the hook for it.



There are other leasing options such as BrightGrid and SunCap who provide far more favorable leasing terms and numbers, and rely on the expertise of pre-qualified local
installers rather than the chaotic environment of trying to do everything in-house, having installers all over the US but all the engineering and actual braintrust being based
in California and overworked to the max.

[russ]

One problem with having a 3rd party installer in the middle - no one really has control.

You are more dependent than ever on the intentions and good heart of the installer.

1) If he is a good guy and knows the business well - then good.

2) If he is a flaky type - then not so good and can be a real problem.

All installers have the same basic costs and the same payback for a given site - no one can say otherwise.

How efficient the leasing company is determines their profitability.

[nate]

Someone had said something (Russ?) about wanting to see the SolarCity Lease/contract, and other people are asking if it's too good to be true.

Well, after several months of working with a (perfectly pleasant) SolarCity sales representative, I got the contract ... which prompted me to send a huge list of issues I had, and things I would need them to change in order to sign the contract. Suffice it to say that the contract isn't nice.

The big issues I had were:

--There's a clause in the contract which says SolarCity owns all "Non-Power" benefits of YOUR system, "into the future," and not just for the duration of the lease. This means tax credits, carbon off-sets, rebates, etc. will ALWAYS go to SolarCity, even if your lease is up.

Differs per location, but that's part of comparing the net cost after all available incentive types right?

My advice is to ignore the knee-jerk posters who confuse the subject of net cost with things irrelevant to your location. Research what your best options available to you are. Get multiple quotes from companies that do up front purchases, and if desired, leasing and other agreements. Compare the systems quoted, the upfront cost and the net cost after incentives. Factor in the value of what you can do with the money if there is significant difference in the up front cost difference. Also factor in what you could do with that money if you invested it in something else besides solar. There is no one size solution. For one person's home, they may be best off not doing solar. For someone in one state a purchase for a certain size system hits the sweet spot financially. For someone else in another state a better solution may exist.

Also, get local references from other local customers and call them all. Ask how long the process took, any surprises and see if they'd mind if you even drove by their home to check things out.

--The "Limited Warranty" is so limited it actually doesn't cover any damage; only damage specifically caused by SolarCity is paid for by SolarCity; there's a nasty "Force Majeure" clause that basically precludes any financial responsibility on their part, including basically all damage and theft.

If your car was damaged by another car, an act of war, Tsumami or was stolen would you expect the manufacturer or dealership you bought from to pay for it? Good luck if you do. No installer I got a quote for covered this kind of damage for their systems how about you?

--No option to purchase at the contract's end (this apparently has to do with consumer lease law; since there's no standard way of determining the value of a solar-power system, they can't offer you the option)

Makes you wonder why there is no standard of determining the value of a solar system. Think this only affects a lease? It affects a purchase too -- not just compared to a lease but compared to putting the money toward something else. Its called opportunity cost.

Its one persons word vs. another in terms of what these systems will be worth in 15 or 20 years. The knew jerk people like to dismiss any notion that manufacturing and technological improvements won't change the industry much in the next 15 years. They like to confuse the subject by referencing the really obscure crazy articles out there, so they can dismiss any notion that the cost to produce panels or inverters (of the same capability) won't change.

The value that someones 15 year old system will end up having is truly has is unknown. My net cost was about 3000 less (for a larger system) for a pre paid lease vs. a purchase. Factor in interest on the net cost difference and guarantee that a system I purchased will be worth at least this figure 15 years from now. Really to be fair you need to factor in the interest that you could be earning if you hadn't paid the up front purchase price and are waiting for a larger proportion to come back from the Fed and State (4 years on the state where I live). Willing to back up a contract, in writing, that a system I purchase will hold its value enough to justify its greater cost. I can't find an installer that will.

--You have to continue to pay your monthly payment even if the panels stop working, and even if it takes them months to get a contractor out to fix them, etc.

The month to month deal wasn't as attractive to me vs. a prepaid agreement. To each their own. Regardless, if you "purchased" a system but really had financed it through a traditional loan you think that you wouldn't have to keep making a payment?

--You have to "maintain" a high-speed internet connection, and if you do not "maintain" the connection (though there are no details about what period of outage qualifies as not being "maintained") your "performance guarantee" becomes VOID.

Personally I want a high speed internet connection, and between 2 LTE lines and one cable line I'm covered in this respect. I wouldn't expect them to be able to respond to a problem that wasn't communicated to them. If I was out of town for a few weeks, and there was no data connection back to them, how would they know to come out and correct the situation? Nice distortion of the contract to make it sound like it is void full the full term.

--No option to cancel the contract if it takes them a year to install the system, which some people have reported.

Contract has options to cancel but this was irrelevant as the only thing we were waiting on was the appropriate permits, the process went fast.

There's more, and I can cut-and-paste sections of it if people would like. After this experience I am going to see about getting a loan and just buying the system myself. I'm sure I could get a reasonable monthly rate from a local credit union.

I honestly hope it goes great for you. For your particular location maybe that is your best option - compare several.

[nate]

Those are some great downsides to SolarCity, they have perhaps the most restrictive conditions of any solar leasing outfit and Sungevity is not far behind. Both companies
are currently flying by their knickers, struggling in key areas as their numbers only make sense when rebates or tariffs are high. Put SolarCity against several other leasing options
and they stack up quite poorly. They truly try to take advantage of their name-status to jump on consumers who don't know any better, if a consumer gets a 2nd or third leasing
quote, SolarCity knows they are flat out of luck. Not to mention that the installs can take forever, anywhere from 3-6 months or longer while other companies are up in finished
in 60-90 days and guarantee that if for whatever reason the system isn't up in 6 months, the homeowner is 100% off the hook for it.



There are other leasing options such as BrightGrid and SunCap who provide far more favorable leasing terms and numbers, and rely on the expertise of pre-qualified local
installers rather than the chaotic environment of trying to do everything in-house, having installers all over the US but all the engineering and actual braintrust being based
in California and overworked to the max.

No matter who you go with, get local references and follow up with them to make sure they are legit and find things out about their experience. By far the slowest part of the process for me was researching and figuring out which company (if any) I wanted to go with. After that things went fast with SolarCity's part. After installation, the final inspections from the city and pg&e were faster than promised from Solar City. I didn't think I'd be online until next month.