SunPower vs SolarWorld/others, price and quality?

[Noblesoft]

One thing I just thought of that I should probably make sure I am calculating right... when people post their price/watt, they are taking the total "installed" price of their quote ($32,594 in my case, which includes labor, panel upgrades etc), and dividing it by the DC watt size of the sytem (7194w in my case). Right? Or are they talking about the ''panel price' without any other misc cost accounted for?

If we talk about 'just the panels', the vendor is telling me that they are at $4.00/watt exactly. The extra $.53/watt covers labor, panel, etc...

Just making sure I'm speaking the same language as everyone else. :P

[Noblesoft]

Thanks Sensij, point taken! I haven't honestly endeavored to read the warranty literature from any manufacturer yet. I suspect they're all about the same, as far as what they include and exclude. SunPower seems as reputable and well regarded of a company as any, so I'm making the (possibly fallacious) assumption that their warranty is as least as good as any other. A few places report that their warranty is the 'only comprehensive 25 year warranty available.' That said, you've piqued my curiosity as to the actual contents of the warranty... maybe I'll download a copy, and read it to put me to sleep tonight. :P Do feel free to share if you have any specific knowledge to pass on!

Appreciate the feedback on price. Sounds like you've seen better... I'll try and find some examples and push a little harder, see if I can get it to go lower. I was perusing the CSI database a little while ago... I'll see if I can filter it down to SunPower systems, and figure out the average going price, to see if that can help my case at all. Not afraid to beat up my vendors.

As far as the 'electricity quality', we're on the same page; watts are watts. I was more referring to the quality of the panels themselves. My supposition is that, based on Sunpower's claims of efficiency and less degradation over time, I will simply be getting more watts over the life of the system, and using less space to generate them. While I have lots of space on my roof, I have some potential shading issues that limit the 'prime' space down to around 20 panels from a typical manufacturer. SunPower's seem to be a bit smaller, so I can fit more in that prime space, and potentially have room to add to the system down the line if my energy usage increases.

I wasn't quite aware of the extent of the shading issues I had until the latest vendor shared some aerial view photos from a different time of day/season than what I had been seeing. I'm starting to worry that most of the other vendors hadn't really been looking at shading at all, and thus the efficiency of their systems might be a bit overstated...

I've done some math of my own, and it seems that I will be paying about $.107 per kWh with this SunPower system, if I average my costs over 20 years of generation. PVWatts calculates the cost to be closer to $.16 assuming a 10% loss, 270 degree facing, and 20 degree tilt. I'm not sure if these settings are perfect, but they seem about right. I'm not sure why my calculated cost is so far off from what PVwatts estimates... probably because I do not factor degradation into my yearly kwh generation. Either way, I just learned that SCE changed their Tier 1 rate to $.165 as of 3/1/2016... so even with the 'sunpower tax', I'm still coming in under tier 1.

Thanks again sensij! Appreciate your no-nonsense perspective.

[sensij]

Equipment warranties are unlikely to be worth the paper they are written on. Read them close. Just sayin.

That isn't really a great price for Sunpower. I don't understand how the electricity produced by a Sunpower panel is of higher quality than the electricity produced by another.

[Noblesoft]

Just finished meeting with yet another vendor, and they were able to offer the following:

22x SunPower 327w AC panel
Inverter included in panel (SolarBridge I assume?)
7.194 kW system size
10618 kWh estimated system output
$32,594 total purchase price
$4.53/watt price (before incentives - $3.17/watt after)

All in all, seems like a pretty good price? Has anyone done better for SunPower? I'm tempted to go with this quote, as I have a tendency to buy higher quality as long as it's not too outlandishly priced. The major selling points are that it takes up less space on my roof, so I can avoid shading better, and the panels reportedly suffer less degradation than most. Also the warranty is backed by a fairly large and somewhat stable company, which has increasing meaning to me.

Now to look into the installer's company.

[Noblesoft]

All great points Randomuser. I thought it was odd no one offered me LG, too. Thinking I'll reach out to SRE, see if they service orange county. I was mostly concerned about the size of the company, and the volume of business they do... pretty small... if they go out of business due to the changing solar landscape, my warranty for installation/labor/roof penetration goes out with them... so that's a factor I'm giving some weight to.

Good point on SolarEdge vs. Enphase. Most of my research on them had been the technical/reliability factors... not the business offering the warranty... but much like I'm concerned about the longevity of the company doing my install, I should be similarly concerned about the longevity of the inverter manufacturer. They definitely have a large share of the market at the moment it seems, and lots of the companies I got quotes from recommended them over a central inverter for all the typical sales-y reasons... but financial viability of the company was never a part of the discussion, oddly. I'll have to scratch my head on that some more.

Agreed about the importance of having a safe/proper installation. Seems like you might have heard some horror stories about solar installation?

[randomuser]

I contemplated the SolarWorld vs LG panel choice myself. Oh, I see your reference to SRE in your first post. I signed my contract with them today, having interest in speaking with them from reading posts here. It's interesting that up in OC, you're not getting any quotes for LG. All but one quote I got had the installers all chose LG. The single company which recommended SolarWorld is an OC based company which I would never do business with nor recommend to anyone who asks me about solar companies. Most of the companies I spoke with, I'd be willing to do business with. I selected SRE because I felt the most comfortable with them or more like "him".

The price difference of about $1000 wasn't enough savings for me to choose SolarWorld. I researched that company and also had the conclusion you did. Will they be around? My research of Enphase vs SolarEdge was the same. SolarEdge is a profitable company. Enphase is in the red. They both generate about the same amount of revenue. Everyone touts the 25 year warranty but that's scary for a company which doesn't make money. I know we can talk about Amazon but is Enphase purposefully losing money, like Amazon's game plan?

Good luck Noblesoft. I also spoke with about a dozen companies. Price was a factor in my selection process but it wasn't the whole reason. I learned a lot about questions to ask from people on this forum. The most important thing about the solar system to me is the integrity of my roof. Any system can make electricity I think. I want to feel safe about the roof after the install.

[Noblesoft]

10-15 vendors is a lot! It makes our opinion of cost appropriateness near irrelevant as you have the facts in hand.

Yeah, I tend to overdo it on research when it comes to large purchases. :P

That said, seeing the various price/watt figures that others are posting, I can't help but shake the fact that I haven't found the "bottom" price yet. Could just be that they are in areas where the panels or labor are less expensive though. I appreciate that you think it's a fair price though. At least it's not a rip off.

Thanks for the suggestion to check out pvwatts, I had heard about it but never endeavored to use it myself... instead, I seem to have more or less done all the work that website does, but manually in my own spreadsheets with less fidelity. :P I checked out the site, put in all my numbers, and surprisingly I was pretty close on my calculations of average cost of energy generated by my proposed system. I had $.08/kW, pvwatts estimates $.10/kW... and they factor in panel degradation and some other stuff it seems, so theirs is probably a better estimate.

Interesting thought on the east panels being less effective... is that just due to time of use energy/generation costs and the fact that I am using most of my energy in the afternoon when the east panels are no longer getting light? I guess I thought that net metering would make time of generation vs time of consumption irrelevant? Or do east-facing panels somehow get less overall sunlight, and I'm just ignorant of that fact? I had thought about switching to Time of Use billing after talking to a few friends that went solar, since apparently the electric company has to reimburse you at the rate they charge... so you get more money during the peak hours when west-facing panels are at their peak generation... so maybe that's what you were getting at? Thanks for illuminating me on the subject!

Finally, regarding 100% offset... that's actually something I have been telling vendors to size at. The way I see it, my energy usage is only going to go up from here, especially once I start getting "free power". Also highly considering an electric car in the not-too-distant future, and while I could just add to my array at that time, I figure the collective labor to split it across two jobs would likely be more expensive than if I just got it all done at once. That, and tier 1 prices here for socal edison are $.15/kW, and tier 1 is very small (275 kW). So, I figured the more of my landline power I offset, the quicker my payback period would be. Let me know if this is logical, or if I've filled my own head with nonsense.

Appreciate your help!

[cebury]

10-15 vendors is a lot! It makes our opinion of cost appropriateness near irrelevant as you have the facts in hand.

If the 3.50w includes the split array and main panel upgrade from a vendor you trust, that is a fair price IMO even if not the absolute lowest seen here. I might make on call to the vendor listed in that 3.00w LG/SolarEdge post (it's near the bottom) for both perceived quality of LG and the lower rate /w if the vendor isn't questionable. You can post solarreviews links and vendor names here if you like, but it sounds like you've made good judgements thus far.

Have you used pvwatts yet? You might find those East panels become very expensive per kWh to include thus extending your cost payback significantly, since you obviously do care about cost. Not saying it's a deal breaker but I'd want to know. Near 100% offset isn't a *required* goal despite what some sales folks suggest and is usually only the most cost effective choice when a very long analysis period is chosen (like 20+ years).

[Noblesoft]

Thanks Cebury!

I'm presently in Orange County, California.

The roof is a asphalt/tar shingle roof, so install should be pretty simple.

The panels can all fit in one plane, though some vendors have opted to split it into two panes... I have two major planes, one faces due east, one due west. This spreads out my energy generation over the day, helps get more generation during peak time by putting some panels on the west facing side for the 1pm-6pm hours, etc. This also helps avoid a little shading at the south end of my roof during certain hours in the winter. I attached a picture of the Solarworld layout... the top of the picture is directly North.

An electric panel upgrade is likely required... the panel has a 200A main, but it's older than dirt (home was made in the early 70's with a cheap panel for that time.) Most have thrown in the cost of the panel upgrade, but ballpark it to be between $1500 and $2500 if I were to do it separately.


I have indeed gotten quotes from several vendors... probably 10-15 at this point. Happy to share their names and prices, but I know there are some restrictions on how to go about doing that. The offers above are the lowest price offers I have gotten to date.

I do plan on talking to one or two more vendors, along with any others that come recommended by the community... and knowing that $3.50 is borderline a good deal, I might try to beat them up a bit more and push for low $3.00...

Thanks!

[cebury]

>>>>so I am doing my best to stick to the mid-range panels unless I can get a killer ($4.00/watt or less) deal on some SunPower panels.
sounds like you are on the right track and your understanding of SolarWorld panels,too. I might suggest you post where in southern CA you are. And the prices seem reasonable, but a 3.50/w might be a tad high depending on where you live and: what kind of roof do you have, will these panels all fit neatly in one plane? Is there an electrical pan upgrade required?

Did you get your quotes from several vendors?

[Noblesoft]

Hey guys, moving this over from where I originally posted it in the Price per Watt section, as my questions are more general than that.

I've been stalking these forums for a month or two while I collect quotes... looking to install a system on my roof in the next week or two. I've gotten a number of quotes, and the one I am considering going with at the moment is:


27x SolarWorld Mono 280w panels
Enphase m250 inverters
7.56 kW system size
10956 kWh estimated system output
$26,460.00 total purchase price
$3.50/watt price (before incentives - $2.45/watt after)


As a backup plan, I have:

29x Phonosolar 260w panels
Enphase m215 inverters
7.54 kW system size
10879 kWh estimated system output
$25,751.00 total purchase price
$3.42/watt price (before incentives - $2.39/watt after)


From my reading so far, SolarWorld isn't a terrible choice in panel. American made, supposedly relatively high quality, same warranty as most other companies provide. I understand they were having some financial trouble a few years back, not sure if that's still the case, but that's my biggest concern at the moment... if they fold, no one is around to carry the warranty.

I'd love to get SunPower for the smaller panels (more room to grow), low rate of degradation, etc... have a quote for the following... but I think it's too expensive:

22x SunPower 327w AC Panels
Integrated micro inverter (sunbridge?)
7.19 kW system size
10890 kWh estimated system output
$35,925.00 total purchase price
$5.00/watt price (before incentives - $3.50/watt after)


I tend to be one to buy high quality / long lasting stuff, but most of the well informed members of the board here seem to insist that the extra cost cannot be justified, so I am doing my best to stick to the mid-range panels unless I can get a killer ($4.00/watt or less) deal on some SunPower panels.

Questions:
1) Any current opinions on SolarWorld? Are they a good choice these days?
2) Are my prices any good? Or is there better to be had?
3) I see a few postings of LG/SolarEdge systems in the low $3.00 range... is that relatively obtainable in southern california? I haven't had any of my 10+ providers quote me LG yet surprisingly...
4) Anyone have a southern california company they can point me towards that offers good pricing on SunPower or LG? I saw the posting about SRE a few posts back, but they seem like a pretty small company... not sure if that matters...

Thanks all, love what you're doing here!