No space for an eco drain so......

[C_Heath]

I did look at the eco drain or perhaps building some sort of grey water heat exchanger but the way my shower is, it would be in the center of the basement at my entry doors. So with that, I noticed that my incoming water line was 49 degrees and steadily warmed up as it got closer to the tank. Keep in mind, #1 I'm new to all this energy conservation stuff, #2 house still has copper water lines, #3 just trying to do what I can to lessen my footprint and save money at the same time. So, wouldn't it be better as a second option to at least spend $12 on some insulation and get that water temp up as it ENTERS the water heater so it won't have to work so hard? Or wil this cause some sort of negative reaction?

Thanks
newbie

[C_Heath]

Addendum: already have pipe insulation on the hot water line. It was a big help in the wait at the shower head for hot water. 3 to 1 in time

[J.P.M.]

If the water is entering the building at 49 F.on its way to the tank, any heat it picks up will be from the dwelling, or the air in the dwelling. Eventually, it'll get to your water heater and get more heat. You pay for at least some of the space heat that heated the water on the way to the tank, and the energy to heat the water once it got to the tank. As a practical matter, and If you're all electric, it makes little difference whether you insulate an incoming water line or not. I'd save the money and skip it for now. You've got bigger fish to fry.

Skip the heat exchanger. They are nowhere as efficient as ads will claim, they will need maintenance, and most are poorly constructed. All are overpriced. If you practice water and energy conservation, there will be less usage of water, hot and cold, and therefore less leaving the dwelling and less heat to recover making any cost effectiveness for a greywater heat exchanger even less. Like most all of this utility bill reduction business, the cheapest and best way to save money is to not use, or minimize use up front. That's the pay you money, take your choice reality of it.

If you DIY a heat exchanger, you can't build a good one and keep it maintained and bacteria free with even a remote chance of getting near safe in terms of health concern, practical or cost effective. I designed heat exchangers for a living and I can't do it either, but I know I can't and I know why.

If you want to save as much energy as possible, and water as well, minimize your hot water use and insulate the tank more. Then get low flow shower heads and faucets. Wash stuff in cold water. Take (SHORT) showers instead of baths. One trick: leave the drain closed in the shower while using it and let the water cool off, giving its heat up to the dwelling. you'll save as much energy as if you put that water through a heat exchanger and the cost will be zero. The no free lunch part: The tub/stall will probably need a bit more frequent cleaning. But, something to think about: a greywater heat exchanger would get just as fouled or more but probably won't get cleaned as often.

All this stuff and more is readily available in the open literature. NOMB, and suit yourself, but when I was new to all this in the mid'70's, as you claim you are now, I got a few books on energy conservation/retrofits,etc. and educated myself. Some stuff worked, some stuff didn't, but it was all in a few places and was there for the discovery and a good source of ideas.

[citabria]

I concur with JPM's comments: Plus if you are trying to preheat potable water you may have to consider a dual walled heat exchanger. A leak in a single walled exchanger could cause cross contamination of the potable water. Shower water will contain fecal coliform bacteria, do you want to drink that? Typically, gray water is going to contain hair, soap scum and dirt, so how do you prevent those from entering and plugging the heat exchanger? If the water is on the hard side, minerals may also build up on the inside of the exchanger.

There will be condensate on the outer piping that will drip, how do you catch that condensate and dispose of that water?. Building air heat exchangers typically have a hose that drains to a janitors floor sink in a commercial structure.

I have designed and installed dual walled heat exchangers on boiler systems, they are costly. Stainless steel, pressure certification by mechanical engineers.

[C_Heath]

good stuff thanks guys!

[J.P.M.]

I concur with JPM's comments: Plus if you are trying to preheat potable water you may have to consider a dual walled heat exchanger. A leak in a single walled exchanger could cause cross contamination of the potable water. Shower water will contain fecal coliform bacteria, do you want to drink that? Typically, gray water is going to contain hair, soap scum and dirt, so how do you prevent those from entering and plugging the heat exchanger? If the water is on the hard side, minerals may also build up on the inside of the exchanger.

There will be condensate on the outer piping that will drip, how do you catch that condensate and dispose of that water?. Building air heat exchangers typically have a hose that drains to a janitors floor sink in a commercial structure.

I have designed and installed dual walled heat exchangers on boiler systems, they are costly. Stainless steel, pressure certification by mechanical engineers.

All part of the hassle. There's lot's more of a technical nature. Not worth the time/$$/hassle and above all health/safety issues.

[DanS26]

Maybe a little off topic....but a few things I have done to save water (and some energy too) is to install "on demand" hot water re circulation system such as the Metlund or Chillipepper system. Here is a product comparison:

http://www.chilipepperapp.com/Artcls27-Metlund-Chlppr.htm

Only recirculates when you need hot water quickly to the sink or shower as opposed to constantly recirculating systems. I have three Metlund pumps installed and very satisfied with performance. I put them in mainly to save water since I have very shallow wells and water can be precious during the dry season here in Indiana. But I have found out they do actual save energy since less hot water is wasted by me and other family members.

Besides low flow shower heads and <1 gal flush toilets, I have installed toilets that have a mini sink built into the top of the holding tank. Thus you wash your hands in the cold water that is used to fill the toilet tank. Not only saves water but no hot water is used. Double savings here again. This unit is available in the USA:

http://www.caromausa.com/products/index/cu_products/39.php

[jflorey2]

Maybe a little off topic....but a few things I have done to save water (and some energy too) is to install "on demand" hot water re circulation system such as the Metlund or Chillipepper system.

I have something similar. It's a standard always-on hot water recirculator pump with a thermostat so it only runs when the hot water line is cold. It's plugged into a remote controlled switch that turns on for ten minutes whenever you push the button on the remote. You press the button, it runs for three minutes and then the thermostat turns it off - then the power to the pump is turned off ten minutes later. It takes about 30 watts while running.

[cebury]

Maybe a little off topic....but a few things I have done to save water (and some energy too) is to install "on demand" hot water re circulation system such as the Metlund or Chillipepper system. Here is a product comparison:

http://www.chilipepperapp.com/Artcls27-Metlund-Chlppr.htm

Only recirculates when you need hot water quickly to the sink or shower as opposed to constantly recirculating systems. I have three Metlund pumps installed and very satisfied with performance. I put them in mainly to save water since I have very shallow wells and water can be precious during the dry season here in Indiana. But I have found out they do actual save energy since less hot water is wasted by me and other family members.

Besides low flow shower heads and <1 gal flush toilets, I have installed toilets that have a mini sink built into the top of the holding tank. Thus you wash your hands in the cold water that is used to fill the toilet tank. Not only saves water but no hot water is used. Double savings here again. This unit is available in the USA:

http://www.caromausa.com/products/index/cu_products/39.php

That toilet seems like a great idea so I excitedly click ked the link. (After seeing the pic): I don't think I could convince family and guests they aren't using toilet water to wash their hands... even though it's technically true.
I let my lawn basically die last summer by reducing its water. I verified that it was 60% of my water consumption during 6 months of the year. But I have 6000sqft. total of lawn.

[Mike90250]

I let my lawn basically die last summer by reducing its water. I verified that it was 60% of my water consumption during 6 months of the year. But I have 6000sqft. total of lawn.

Next year, you will be asked to conserve 20% from your lowest year

[DanS26]

That toilet seems like a great idea so I excitedly click ked the link. (After seeing the pic): I don't think I could convince family and guests they aren't using toilet water to wash their hands... even though it's technically true.
I let my lawn basically die last summer by reducing its water. I verified that it was 60% of my water consumption during 6 months of the year. But I have 6000sqft. total of lawn.

In Japan.....the land of cleanliness.......those types of toilet sinks are ubiquitous.

A short plumbing lesson has convinced my family that the water is coming from the pipes before entering the toilet fixture, just like the regular sink. The amount of water saving is great and no hot water down the drain.

[cebury]

In Japan.....the land of cleanliness.......those types of toilet sinks are ubiquitous.

A short plumbing lesson has convinced my family that the water is coming from the pipes before entering the toilet fixture, just like the regular sink. The amount of water saving is great and no hot water down the drain.

For the first time, couple months back i saw a bidet for sale on display in Costco... not sure if that means they are making penetration at all, but something was convincing enough for them to take a risk on it.

[J.P.M.]

For the first time, couple months back i saw a bidet for sale on display in Costco... not sure if that means they are making penetration at all, but something was convincing enough for them to take a risk on it.

I don't think the intended purpose of bidets is for making penetration.

[cebury]

I don't think the intended purpose of bidets is for making penetration.

Depends on gender.. well not so much. Anyhoo.

[bcroe]

a few things I have done to save water (and some energy too) is to install "on demand" hot water re circulation system such as the Metlund or Chillipepper system. Here is a product comparison:

Only recirculates when you need hot water quickly to the sink or shower as opposed to constantly recirculating systems. I have three Metlund pumps installed and very satisfied with performance. I put them in mainly to save water since I have very shallow wells and water can be precious during the dry season here in Indiana. But I have found out they do actual save energy since less hot water is wasted by me and other family members.

I looked at systems in stores. They seemed way too expensive, and generally compromised in order to simplify
installation. Connect to the last fixture they said. That means using the cold line as the hot line return, bad idea.

My plumbing did get modified, and a much smaller dia return line was added with a pump. I used a 12VDC pump
using only about 4W, which only runs when the temp at the end of the line gets too much lower than at the heater.
The hysteresis is adjustable, and the sensed temps or differential can be selected for display. The pump is an
Ivan Labs El Sid SID3.5PV DC Circulating Pump
Bruce Roe