Need Advice on 25 sunpower 240s and Magnum Quad MS448 plus batteries (Hybrid System).

[naples]

I am about to put down a deposit on a sunpower hybrid system that includes:

Panels: ($40,000)
• (25) - E19 240 Sunpower panels (with built in inverters)

Other equipment: ($60,000)
• Magnum MS448 PAE Quad Power Inverters
• HUP Solar-one-so-6-125-33 Battery Pack

Equipment installation $18,000
Startup/commissioning $9,000
Total $101,500

This is a purchase, no incentives yet, just straight numbers.

This configuration was suggested as without it if the power fails, the Magnum MS448 PAE Quad Power Inverters will “act” like the power company and the solar cells will run indefinitely continually powering the batteries every day for everyday use like an off grid system, which is what I am looking for, bit on grid and off grid potential.
So it works on grid/off grip, I guess a hybrid.

Since the config is a year old, I was wondering if anyone has any advice or anything has changed (maybe better solutions) or if the prices are consistent with other people experience.

Any replies are appreciated.

[Naptown]

I have a bridge in New York that you may also be interested in buying.

[ckhorne]

You're getting screwed. That's far too expensive. Panels should be less than $10k. Mini-inverters are typically ~$300 each, and the battery you quoted would be about $20k, making some assumptions. Even if you paid $18k for installation (!) and $9k for "startup/commissioning" (whatever that is), then you're still should be at $65k.

I don't think mini-inverters will work without the grid being up, unless those are atypical inverters.

I'll let others here who have far more experience than I do speak, but it sounds like you need to shop around.

[naples]

I did a little checking around and:


The 40K panels
The solar panels are the new E19 240 with the built in inverters, $1600 a panel is too much?


the 60K other equipment
The MAGNUM inverters are about 2-3K each and I think I am getting 4 of them thats 12K
The batteries are about 6K, so I am checking to see how many I am getting (12,24,48 volt) so unsure.

The magnum inverters create the sine wave I guess to when the power company shuts down,
the inverters still function.
I guess they do several things:

1) Charge the batteries.
2) provide a signal to the solar panels if the power goes down so the solar keeps working.
3) switch from Grid/Generator/Battery automatically.

It is my understanding that the inverters need a signal to match in order to operate. True?

Thanks for your posts so far.

[inetdog]

I did a little checking around and:


The 40K panels
The solar panels are the new E19 240 with the built in inverters, $1600 a panel is too much?


the 60K other equipment
The MAGNUM inverters are about 2-3K each and I think I am getting 4 of them thats 12K
The batteries are about 6K, so I am checking to see how many I am getting (12,24,48 volt) so unsure.

The magnum inverters create the sine wave I guess to when the power company shuts down,
the inverters still function.
I guess they do several things:

1) Charge the batteries.
2) provide a signal to the solar panels if the power goes down so the solar keeps working.
3) switch from Grid/Generator/Battery automatically.

It is my understanding that the inverters need a signal to match in order to operate. True?

Thanks for your posts so far.

If your panels are connected to micro-inverters, then they will produce AC output only when connected to a stable (usually grid/POCO) source of AC. They will then deliver power back into that source.
If you also have batteries and an inverter, then what is proposed is what we call a Hybrid or AC-Coupled system which can deliver power in the event of a utility failure too.
Those are very complex and picky to set up, and we would really need to know more about it to be able to help you.
(Current Hybrid systems rarely use micro-inverters, as these often require a lot more precise voltage and frequency than a standard inverter will deliver, and a standard inverter will not be able to absorb the power generated by the microinverters.)

[Naptown]

Here is the other problem you will encounter with that set up.
say the batteries are full and no or little load on the house (Less than the panels are producing.)
You will need a diversion load and basically a charge controller to prevent the Magnums from over charging as they will want to dump excess power into the batteries.
The price for this is way too high also Even for Sunpower (which is impossible to shop as sold through dealers only) the cost for the panels alone is over $6.50 a watt. That is about a dollar a watt more than fully installed Sunpower systems are going for here. Not knowing where you are located could make a difference in cost.

[naples]

I just got this from the rep:
Not including shipping, handling, assembly, battery cables, wiring, relays, and terminal busses, our prices are as follows:
1-4Star Magnum MS4024 Quad Inverter: $12,801.00
4- HUP Solar-One SO-6-125-33 $24,329.08
$37,130.08
Our total material costs with all of the necessary accessories shipping and handling will be over $40,000.
Our component cost on the Sunpower modules, inverters, S-5’sand racking will over $25,000. This brings our initial basic equipment order to around $62,000.

So I guess my numbers were off, the install is included in the 40K for the panels and the 60K for the battery and MAGNUM

I had someone research it for me and the MAGNUM was one of the only solutions for what I was trying to accomplish.
Here is a couple links to what I was going to get:

http://voodoosolar.com/power-equipment/preassembled-power-centers/magnum-panel-48-volt-quad-inverter-ms4448pae-power-center-120-240v.html

http://www.wholesalesolar.com/inverter-system/prewired-solar-power-center-MPDH.html

It’s pretty beefy I guess.


Is $6.67 a watt installed (40K for 25 of them) (two story metal roof in central florida) too much for these brand new E19 sunpower with integrated micro inverters?

I did ask them to size the batteries to take the charge of 50 panels to get from 50% to 100% in a single average sunny day. Even I didnt know it was that much (60K) equipment and install.

As far as the charge controller and stuff, you can see from my first link above, everything can be added on.

[Naptown]

Precisely what are you intending to run that you need a 17.5KW off grid inverter.
You have 25 panels rated at 240W = 6000W of solar
And a 2400 AH battery bank at 48V which taking the batteries to a 50% DOD = 57.6 KW
So your inverter will run for about 4 hours before the LVD on the inverters kicks off

[naples]

This is new construction. The home will be 10,000 sq feet under air. I can fit (25) (SunPower E19 240 panels with integrated inverters) on one south facing roof and another 25 panels on another south facing roof. I am going to have the first 25 installed along with the infrastructure and then add the other 25 if I like what I see.

Since the inverters will shutdown along with the power company, no sine wave to match without the power company, I am disinclined to get any solar system unless it stays on when the power goes off (basically act like on grid when the power is on, and off grid when the power is off).

I also want to have the ability to locally store the entire 50 panels of power average sunny day in a battery array.

So I have a few reps put together a config:

They recommended:
• (25) (SunPower E19 240 panels with integrated inverters) (initial)
• 1-4Star Magnum MS4024 Quad Inverter
• 4- HUP Solar-One SO-6-125-33
• (25) (SunPower E19 240 panels with integrated inverters) (future)

It was originally planned with enphase micro inverters, but then changes when SunPower came out with the panels with integrated inverters.

The way it is explained to me is that 50 panels (25 to start) will run and charge the batteries first and then feed power to the grid while the grid is on, the theory is that while the grid is one the batteries will already remained charged so it will pretty much act like a on grid system feeding the power company for a lower power bill. If the grid goes off, then the reserve in the batteries will be used and charged each day. The number of panels is a match for the battery array so maximum power can be stored.

It basically does pretty much everything I want.

So guessing here:

I believe the large inverter is needed to charge the batteries and switch back and forth from off and on grid and supply the sine wave if the power is off. I am told not many can do all that.
if 50 panels is 12KW it would take about 4.5 hours to charge a 2400 AH battery bank from 50% to 100% in a single day (your 57.6 KW). Correct?
So if I am just installing 25 for now, it will take 2 days (25% a day). Correct?

What do I want to run? – I guess anything I want, just maxing out the space and matching the batteries to the panel. Not a good idea? I was going to have a dedicated panel for circuits I want to run from the batteries. So only these dedicated circuits will work when I lose power.

Thoughts?

[Sunking]

Where is the generator in that bid. Any battery system has to have a generator.

[bonaire]

I had a pretty long reply to this one yesterday. Did one of the mods delete it? I don't think I added any links or anything "bad" to it.

I mirrored some of the other replies - that the system cost is high and to look at a generator instead of batteries for the stand-by power.

Also, when you bring a 10K sq ft home to an installer, they believe you will be willing to pay more for the project versus the "more common man". For example, electricians will charge up to 2x or more to install a 240V line to an EV charger than to a dryer plug. Same wire and circuit dimensions and labor time. It's because "it's an EV" that they up-charge for. Especially doing those government-incentive based SPX installs. One guy quoted me a $1100 install cost to put in 10-15 feet of #8 wire and conduit in a garage for this "free Blink Charger" campaign they have in PA/NJ. They charge 4-hours labor for the paperwork.

[Naptown]

There are several faults with that system. The two that come to mind immediately are as follows.

First off the 25 panel array will not produce enough to charge that battery bank from 50% DOD in a day.

Second this is an AC coupled system. The micro inverters depend on the battery bank to start up and operate. If say your huge inverter shuts down due to low battery the system will never start up and the panels on the roof will sit there and produce nothing.
Second in this system the batteries are not charged first the panels produce AC and the Magnums provide battery charging via the internal charging portion. In a low battery situation where the Magnums are shut down you would still need a generator to charge the batteries at minimum to a point where the Magnums could restart off of the battery.

To offer a different configuration I would suggest eliminating the microinverters. (I'm not sure Sunpower allows AC coupled systems with microinverters anyway you should check with Sunpower directly to avoid warranty issues.)

Go to a Xantrex XW system.
In this case the batteries are indeed charged first. Once the battery is charged the inverters then go into a "sell" mode selling power back to the grid.
This eliminates a couple of issues mainly dead batteries and the back up inverter then not starting up or shutting down taking the entire system out until either a generator is connected to recharge the battery or the grid comes back up. You also eliminate the problem of creating a large enough diversion load which is required with the Magnum system unless they have reconfigured it since the last time I looked.

[Naptown]

I had a pretty long reply to this one yesterday. Did one of the mods delete it? I don't think I added any links or anything "bad" to it.

You may have replied to another thread of the same name and subject. Something was wrong with the thread and was redirected to a 404 message. The thread was deleted and this one was started over.

[bonaire]

On a cloudy late-fall day like today, my 32-module 8.16KW system is putting out about 500W this afternoon about 2:30pm with peak at noon about 2.5KW. He'll definitely need a generator in his configuration.

[Sunking]

Where is your generator at in the list? A genset is a must have for hybrid system.