easy connection to grid... Batteries not included help needed

[cashaber]

hi all.

a pleasure to find this forum.

ok here is my question

I am looking into various solar setups. looks like all setups that use wind turbines use batteries. well there is a slight flaw here.

1. I dont want to use batteries
2. Grid tie system.

though it does seem that you need a controller of sorts to make sure that it doesnt pump too much electricity into the system at once or overload the inverter.
I have bought the power for home system (books dvd) the movie said they would show me how to make a 400 watt solar panel set (4 panels) which when I looked
through the books the setup was for 1 60 watt panel made of wood and glass.. a picture frame would you believe? well these wood panels will not pass the code compliance
governend by the electric Co (TXU,) NOT UL LISTED . Also the price he was talking about would make the panels about $40 well nowdays more like $100. better just to by the comercial panels. ok enuf about that I did ramble a bit but just wanted you to know.

ok here is my thoughts.....
I am looking to get a wind turbine the apollo 550 watt wind generator looks to be the best ... compact 49"s well pretty compact anyways. low cost too about $400 on ebay. they come in an AC and a DC version.

Can I get the AC version and just wire it to my house, bypassing the need for an inverter? maybe with some kinda stableizer to equil out the electric coming into the house? or is a DC version better?


DC version wind turbine >> Inverter >> Grid or House plug btw inverter made to shut down on less windy days.

AC version Wind Generator >> House. ?????

I will be adding more stuff to the system at a later date .. just cant spend $4000 to get a decent system up front but I can add a bit to it each month.

thanks

[billvon]

I am looking to get a wind turbine the apollo 550 watt wind generator looks to be the best ... compact 49"s well pretty compact anyways. low cost too about $400 on ebay. they come in an AC and a DC version. Can I get the AC version and just wire it to my house, bypassing the need for an inverter?

Probably not. Per the specs on that system it's 12VAC which likely means wild AC (i.e. diodes are on the ground, still need batteries.) There are several inverters out there that work with wind (Windy Boy, Apollo etc) but you have to match the voltage to the inverter input - and generally you need 30 volts or better. There are also several turbines that come with an inverter for grid tie.

A warning on wind. Wind can produce a lot of power - but it has to be installed correctly. That means on a tall guyed tower, with the bottom of the rotor 30 feet above any obstacles within 500 feet. Which means that you could easily be installing a 150 foot tower. And you CANNOT skimp on the tower. Roof mounts don't work as they are invariably too short (and they transmit a lot of vibration to the house.)

>just cant spend $4000 to get a decent system up front but I can add a bit to it each month.

Wind is very hard to set up piecemeal. Generally you're going to spending a lot for the tower and turbine; you can't buy a short tower and cheap turbine and expand later.

[cashaber]

Probably not. Per the specs on that system it's 12VAC which likely means wild AC (i.e. diodes are on the ground, still need batteries.) There are several inverters out there that work with wind (Windy Boy, Apollo etc) but you have to match the voltage to the inverter input - and generally you need 30 volts or better. There are also several turbines that come with an inverter for grid tie.

A warning on wind. Wind can produce a lot of power - but it has to be installed correctly. That means on a tall guyed tower, with the bottom of the rotor 30 feet above any obstacles within 500 feet. Which means that you could easily be installing a 150 foot tower. And you CANNOT skimp on the tower. Roof mounts don't work as they are invariably too short (and they transmit a lot of vibration to the house.)

>just cant spend $4000 to get a decent system up front but I can add a bit to it each month.

Wind is very hard to set up piecemeal. Generally you're going to spending a lot for the tower and turbine; you can't buy a short tower and cheap turbine and expand later.

the apollo 550 comes in a 24 volt system as well as AC or DC version. I was planning on putting it on my cheminy ("We never use it" 25yrs in the same house and never had a fire in the fireplace) I dont think my neighbors would appreciate a 30' tower in my back yard. As for the solar panels was going to have that too. but I think I'll stick with wind too.

the 150' tower is a bit over kill would mean the wind turbine would be as big as the ones you see in CA, no; however I can get a mini wind generator like the kind I had on my yacht which was reallly just enuff to charge the batteries over night.

[Sunny Solar]

Here is the best FREE advice you are going to get.. Take this from someone that spent a lot of time and effort with wind generators...
FORGET ABOUT THEM .The power you get from them is almost always well below the rared specs.. Yes you can get 6 blade kits for most of the 3 blade ones that improve the output. but still the output is far to spasmodic to be really useful.. If you want supplementary power the only way to go is solar panels.. best value for money and most reliable..

[bonaire]

Instead of building your own panel(s) - what about buying blemished or b-grade overage panels from eBay? You can find some very good deals there.

[billvon]

the apollo 550 comes in a 24 volt system as well as AC or DC version. I was planning on putting it on my cheminy ("We never use it" 25yrs in the same house and never had a fire in the fireplace)

Whatever you do, do not put it on the chimney! The chimney will transmit all the vibration into your house - and then fall off your house when a storm comes through. They are not strong enough to support a wind generator.

I dont think my neighbors would appreciate a 30' tower in my back yard. As for the solar panels was going to have that too. but I think I'll stick with wind too.

Then wind power is not for you, period. You need, as an absolute minimum, to keep the turbine 30 feet above any obstructions. That means if you have 40 foot trees near you, and 2 foot blades on the turbine, you will need a 71 foot tower. Again, that is absolute minimum. Higher is better.

the 150' tower is a bit over kill would mean the wind turbine would be as big as the ones you see in CA

No, even the small ones need clean air. If they don't get clean air you see increased vibration, reduced power output and shorter life.

no; however I can get a mini wind generator like the kind I had on my yacht which was reallly just enuff to charge the batteries over night.

Sure, if you want a few watt-hours you can mount a turbine any old place and the wind will spin it. But you're not going to get any significant power - which is why so many people are disappointed by do-it-yourself wind. So if the wind thing is just a fun project for you, go for it. Just don't expect any usable amounts of power.

[russ]

@ billvon - Well stated

[cashaber]

Instead of building your own panel(s) - what about buying blemished or b-grade overage panels from eBay? You can find some very good deals there.

I've actually been activly searching ebay for used solar panels
just nothing really comes up any search words I may not be thinking of that I can use?
what I currently find is just b-grade cells. or panels in lots. I dont have a lot of $$ to spend but
I can work up and add to what I have month after month.

thanks

[bonaire]

What is your goal? And if you have a goal, let's state it as a business case.

If it is to save money, what is your per-kWh cost of electricity?
Have you done energy efficiency changes to your current environment to cut existing costs?
Is this a hobby system or are you trying to do something substantial that will last year after year?
Are you prepared to do an interconnect agreement with the local utility?
Do you know about the electrical inspection process? Does your township require a permit? Usually $100 in my township. Just to get a permit, I will have to pay $100 to do "anything" such as install a shed, install solar, both, etc. Do you know if you would have to pay a similar fee just to put up one panel? Fire ordinances and electrical code may require an external shut-off switch that is visible and accessible to them. Your local utility may require you to install a 2nd meter for outgoing metering of power if you happen to do a grid-tie system. Even if you never produce as much power as you use, my local power company requires this.

This is why when people do solar, they do it pretty big. A minimum size system that has a chance of payback is 3KW (that is 12 250W panels). DIY systems still need to go through alot of this electrical code, permitting and other ordinance stuff. The cost benefit ends up being you are not paying an integrator to do the installation. Which also means you also have to self-warranty the system and fix parts that don't quite work out.

A small system that you might want to try to look at would be a SunnyBoy 700U inverter (max output 700W AC 120V) and maybe a couple of b-grade modules. If that works out for you, then add on. It's possible to do that as a DIY grid-tie system. I believe the output of that is 120V so you only need a single-leg breaker switch. But you should have an external cut-off switch to it as well. And a proper electrician inspection once done.