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  • J.P.M.
    Solar Fanatic
    • Aug 2013
    • 14926

    #16
    Originally posted by bcroe
    Here the standard for commercial systems is the inverter max
    output KW, and a DC:AC ratio to indicate over paneled. I see
    the panels as intended to keep the inverter busy, sometimes under
    conditions where the DC total can never be achived in operation,
    so I use the same standard. Somtimes panels have multiple
    orientations, allowing serious power to flow for more hours and
    achieve more energy, more evenly, with a given size inverter.
    Bruce Roe
    I believe I understand what you're writing, and that makes sense for commercial systems, but for residential systems it makes little sense to me to oversize an inverter beyond what the design calls for and probably something a bit less than the STC rating of what's driving the inverter.

    Rather than seeing the purpose of the panels as keeping the inverter busy, I see the inverter's purpose as an interface and power conditioner between the panels and the grid, at least for a grid tie system, with the arrays sized to the design duty and the inverter(s) sized to meet and handle what the array(s) produce in the safest, most efficient and most cost-effective manner.

    Arrays with multiple panel orientations can indeed produce a more even power output over a day but will do so at the expense of less overall power output per installed STC kW over the course of that day.

    In terms of annual system output, multiple array orientations always mean more installed STC kW capacity will be required than for a single optimally oriented array.
    Want examples ? Do a PVWatts run on a 2 STC kW array for any location and find the orientation that maximizes output. Then, find any 2 orientations for 1 STC kW arrays for the same location that provide greater output.

    Q.E.D.

    And while we both know that a single orientation array will mean more inverter capacity to handle the higher peak output, and so likely at (some) greater inverter cost, it will also mean lower panel and associated installation cost.

    My educated guess is that an incremental panel STC W costs more than an incremental inverter capacity W, particularly when construction costs such as wiring/framing and construction costs are considered.

    While there may be some exceptions such as max. kW output rates to the grid type of restraints, and maybe some other considerations, besides common sense, I've only to look at the number of single orientation large solar farms vs. the number of multiple array orientation farms for confirmation that a lot of solar farm designers that use PV panels seem to agree with me that given the choice, single array orientation is more cost effective and probably more practical.

    Comment

    • SolTex
      Member
      • Mar 2022
      • 74

      #17
      Originally posted by alfie1111

      yes a 10.8kw system should cover my 13mw usage but i can not generate 10.8kw as my inverters will only out put 9k
      I would suggest taking J.P.M.'s suggestion and running your numbers in the PVWatts calculator. Try inputting your present system and see what you get. You may be suprised to find that regardless of what the fast-talking sales person said, you were in fact sold a system that will meet your requirements. If, OTOH, if the calculator says your present system falls short, you can run it again with 4 more panels and another inverter and see how that comes out.

      You don't mention your geographic location or any specifics about your installation. Just as a comparison, I put what numbers you have stated up against our system. We live in West TX where the annual solar radiation numbers are very favorable. Below in the little chart I compare my system to yours:

      Annual consumption: (mine) 26,000 kWh (yours) 13,000 kWh
      System DC size: (mine) 15,200 W (yours) 10,800 W
      System AC size: (mine) 11,800 W (yours) 9,000 W
      DC/AC Ratio: (mine) 1.29 (yours) 1.20

      You can see that my annual consumption runs about twice what you consume. Yet your system (AC rating) is about 75% the size of mine, so under suitable conditions should have no problem supporting your annual consumption.

      When I plugged my system into PVWatts (BEFORE we signed the contract) it predicted we would offset our usage 110% over the course of a year. So far, after a year of operation, we are running well ahead of the prediction. I think the calculator can produce some pretty reliable results, as long as the inputs are correct and accurate.
      Enphase 15kW: (40) LG380N1C, IQ7+, (2) 10T storage

      Comment

      • alfie1111
        Junior Member
        • Mar 2023
        • 14

        #18
        Originally posted by SolTex

        I would suggest taking J.P.M.'s suggestion and running your numbers in the PVWatts calculator. Try inputting your present system and see what you get. You may be suprised to find that regardless of what the fast-talking sales person said, you were in fact sold a system that will meet your requirements. If, OTOH, if the calculator says your present system falls short, you can run it again with 4 more panels and another inverter and see how that comes out.

        You don't mention your geographic location or any specifics about your installation. Just as a comparison, I put what numbers you have stated up against our system. We live in West TX where the annual solar radiation numbers are very favorable. Below in the little chart I compare my system to yours:

        Annual consumption: (mine) 26,000 kWh (yours) 13,000 kWh
        System DC size: (mine) 15,200 W (yours) 10,800 W
        System AC size: (mine) 11,800 W (yours) 9,000 W
        DC/AC Ratio: (mine) 1.29 (yours) 1.20

        You can see that my annual consumption runs about twice what you consume. Yet your system (AC rating) is about 75% the size of mine, so under suitable conditions should have no problem supporting your annual consumption.

        When I plugged my system into PVWatts (BEFORE we signed the contract) it predicted we would offset our usage 110% over the course of a year. So far, after a year of operation, we are running well ahead of the prediction. I think the calculator can produce some pretty reliable results, as long as the inputs are correct and accurate.
        Strange how my electric bill was $259.00 last month and the calculator comes up 2mw short

        Comment

        • alfie1111
          Junior Member
          • Mar 2023
          • 14

          #19
          Originally posted by alfie1111

          Strange how my electric bill was $259.00 last month and the calculator comes up 2mw short
          Im not sure why I need JPM suggestion has absolute nothing to do with my original question

          so you know here it is again

          How are system rated? do I use panel out put or inverter output? I have 4x455w panels but my inverters only put out 1500w is this a 1500w system or a 1720w system?

          Comment

          • SolTex
            Member
            • Mar 2022
            • 74

            #20
            OK, I'm out of here. Good luck.
            Enphase 15kW: (40) LG380N1C, IQ7+, (2) 10T storage

            Comment

            • RichardCullip
              Solar Fanatic
              • Oct 2019
              • 184

              #21
              Originally posted by alfie1111
              How are system rated? do I use panel out put or inverter output? I have 4x455w panels but my inverters only put out 1500w is this a 1500w system or a 1720w system?
              Most people I know would describe your system as a 1.82kW system (based on your four 455w panels). Your 1.5kW inverter will be a determining factor, along with orientation of panels, weather conditions, the area you operate those panels and some other conditions in how much electricity will be generated daily, weekly, monthly and yearly.

              You need not obsess over how to describe your system. Worry about whether it will generate enough to cover your overall needs

              Comment

              • J.P.M.
                Solar Fanatic
                • Aug 2013
                • 14926

                #22
                Originally posted by alfie1111

                Im not sure why I need JPM suggestion has absolute nothing to do with my original question

                so you know here it is again

                How are system rated? do I use panel out put or inverter output? I have 4x455w panels but my inverters only put out 1500w is this a 1500w system or a 1720w system?
                Panel output in STC W is the common way of describing PV panel and system nominal size.

                See and (re)read my 03/26/23 post of 0931 hrs. for how systems are described and rated.

                Otherwise download a free PDF of "Solar Power Your Home for Dummies" from the net. It may clear things up for you.

                I'll be with SolTex if you need me.

                Good luck.

                Comment

                • alfie1111
                  Junior Member
                  • Mar 2023
                  • 14

                  #23
                  Originally posted by RichardCullip

                  Most people I know would describe your system as a 1.82kW system (based on your four 455w panels). Your 1.5kW inverter will be a determining factor, along with orientation of panels, weather conditions, the area you operate those panels and some other conditions in how much electricity will be generated daily, weekly, monthly and yearly.

                  You need not obsess over how to describe your system. Worry about whether it will generate enough to cover your overall needs
                  "Worry about whether it will generate enough to cover your overall needs" this is what is was trying to figure out, I was told i would need a 10.8k system to cover my usage but as far as I can figure out I have a 9k system.

                  Comment

                  • SunEagle
                    Super Moderator
                    • Oct 2012
                    • 15125

                    #24
                    Originally posted by alfie1111

                    "Worry about whether it will generate enough to cover your overall needs" this is what is was trying to figure out, I was told i would need a 10.8k system to cover my usage but as far as I can figure out I have a 9k system.
                    IMO the solar seller lied to you about what you will need and what you are getting.

                    Comment

                    • alfie1111
                      Junior Member
                      • Mar 2023
                      • 14

                      #25
                      Originally posted by SunEagle

                      IMO the solar seller lied to you about what you will need and what you are getting.
                      And this is what info I was trying to find out thank you

                      Comment

                      • RichardCullip
                        Solar Fanatic
                        • Oct 2019
                        • 184

                        #26
                        Originally posted by alfie1111

                        yes a 10.8kw system should cover my 13mw usage but i can not generate 10.8kw as my inverters will only out put 9k
                        For grins, I modeled a 10.8kW set of panels with a 9kW inverter (1.2 DC:AC ratio) on my roof top in Poway, CA using PVWatts The calculator suggests that I would get 19,225kWh/year with an expected range from 18.479kWh to 19,346kWh.per year.

                        Not sure of your panel orientation and location but you might be surprised by what a system comprised of 10.8kW panels with a 9kW set of inverters could provide on a yearly basis. The 9kW set of inverters might not be the limiting factor you seem to think they are.

                        Comment

                        • alfie1111
                          Junior Member
                          • Mar 2023
                          • 14

                          #27
                          Originally posted by RichardCullip

                          For grins, I modeled a 10.8kW set of panels with a 9kW inverter (1.2 DC:AC ratio) on my roof top in Poway, CA using PVWatts The calculator suggests that I would get 19,225kWh/year with an expected range from 18.479kWh to 19,346kWh.per year.

                          Not sure of your panel orientation and location but you might be surprised by what a system comprised of 10.8kW panels with a 9kW set of inverters could provide on a yearly basis. The 9kW set of inverters might not be the limiting factor you seem to think they are.
                          well i live in pei canada the pv calculator says 11mw with a 9k system. I paid for a system that was $ per watt. Should I have a system that would come close to what I paid for of should I ged 10% less?

                          Comment

                          • alfie1111
                            Junior Member
                            • Mar 2023
                            • 14

                            #28
                            Originally posted by alfie1111

                            well i live in pei canada the pv calculator says 11mw with a 9k system. I paid for a system that was $ per watt. Should I have a system that would come close to what I paid for of should I ged 10% less?
                            Let me ask a simpler question. If I go to the hardware store and buy a 2x4x8 would It be safe to assume a 2x4x6 would do the same thing when i get home?

                            Comment

                            • RichardCullip
                              Solar Fanatic
                              • Oct 2019
                              • 184

                              #29
                              Originally posted by alfie1111

                              well i live in pei canada the pv calculator says 11mw with a 9k system. I paid for a system that was $ per watt. Should I have a system that would come close to what I paid for of should I ged 10% less?
                              However, the convention in PVWatts is to input the DC kW of the solar panels not the inverter. As a default PVWatts uses a DC:AC ratio of panels to inverter of 1.2 which is what you have. I could not be clearer that you have a 10.8kW system by the convention used in the solar industry. Give that a try.

                              Comment

                              • alfie1111
                                Junior Member
                                • Mar 2023
                                • 14

                                #30
                                Originally posted by RichardCullip

                                However, the convention in PVWatts is to input the DC kW of the solar panels not the inverter. As a default PVWatts uses a DC:AC ratio of panels to inverter of 1.2 which is what you have. I could not be clearer that you have a 10.8kW system by the convention used in the solar industry. Give that a try.
                                k systemthat under no cirstances can it generate more than
                                so the industry is set out to screw the consumer? you are sold a 10.8k system that can not generate more than 9k even under perfect conditions. I know when I looked into installing a wind turbine I was told my inverter should be 15% larger than the rated output of my wind mill.

                                Comment

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