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  • Jerry Kirwan
    Junior Member
    • Apr 2022
    • 12

    A Texas Power Pricing Question

    I am considering a solar DYI Installation outside of Houston (BTW I already have a 23kW Generator) and believe I have the perfect location for about a 15 kW system, (I would like to go bigger but I am limited to 900 Sq/Ft) Current consumption 19,815 kWh/yr 1,651 kWh/Mo/Avg. $1,990/yr I am concerned as to the ROI time Frame.
    I understand the Net Metering which Texas does not have but there are Buyback Programs. The problem in Texas is there are two components to Texas Energy Pricing.
    1. The Energy in the form of kWh's
    2. The wire charges (TDU Charges) of .045 cents/kWh from Center Point Energy for every kWh consumed.
    3. #1 & 2 Equal what is referred to as the "All In" charges. for the total sum of your monthly Energy bill. Suppose the Energy is .07 + .045 = .115c/kWh
    My next 12 mo contract will be .104 + .045 + 14.9c/kWh

    This is where the problems come in: In the winter when we over produce we hope to equal what we over consume in the summer.
    1. When I over produce I should receive credits for X kWh @ .07c/kWh 'Great' Example 3/2021 I used 1072 kWh.
    2. When I over consume I will burn X kWh credits @ .07c/kWh + Generation Example 9/2021 I used 2452.
    IF I size my system correctly @ 110% I should have a net Zero energy bill?

    Now for the kicker: The .045c/kWh is not going to disappear. I still owe CPE (The DTU charges) for the net difference between what I Generate & Consume in the summer months.
    The way I see the billing is I am going to be billed by (CPE TDU charges) @ .045c/kWh for every credit I burn down, which I accumulated during the winter months.

    The only solution I see is to run a Hybrid System with Battery backup, but a battery system will raise my installation cost another 15k. on top of the 25k for the DYI system.
    Or Over Produce @ 1.3:1

    This is an Email from my Power Handler
    Hi Jerry:
    This is Matt, RSE Co-Founder. A few things.
    (1) I want to clarify your utility versus your provider. Centerpoint is a utility which manages the transmission and meter; it is NOT an energy supplier and thus has no plans available for you. You will have to sign up for a buyback plan with an actual supplier to be able to effectuate an Interconnect Agreement, as the supplier settles the billing statement with ERCOT. Green Mountain and Octopus are examples of suppliers ("REPs"), but they are not ones with good solar buyback plans. We highly recommend going with our preferred partners here, either Almika, Shell, or Heritage (or others depending on which is cheapest). Nearly all of these plans are net metered, meaning they give you 1:1 energy credit on your buyback.
    (2) A common misconception is that "if I produce more than I pull in a month, I'll have a net credit with the supplier." This may not be true. When you pull from the grid, you have to pay Centerpoint the TDU charge of 4.5c on every kwh in addition to the supplier's energy rate of ~9c, so your all-in cost on every kwh consumed is 13-14c. When you produce energy, the supplier buys it back at the 9c rate, but you do not get a net offset credit from Centerpoint under the common plan terms. Thus, you will have to "overproduce" by ~1.3x your consumption in order to get a bill credit. I don't want you to be surprise when you get bills from the supplier even if you feel you "net offset 100%". The reality is unless you have a battery, the 100% offset will be offsetting your usage during the day when your panels are active and then pulling from the grid at night. If you do have a battery, you can let us know, and the rates can in fact change.
    We are happy to discuss this further. In any event, your best bet is to stick with us, let us enroll you with Heritage, and then let's together evaluate your panel's usage profile using your Smart Meter Data to determine IF these buyback plans are actually a better deal.
    Matt
    Last edited by Jerry Kirwan; 05-22-2022, 11:05 PM. Reason: Clarification
  • SolTex
    Member
    • Mar 2022
    • 74

    #2
    Jerry,

    We live in Texas, and have recently gone through installing a 15 kW ground mount solar system and jumping through all the many hoops required to get it connected to the grid. It took 3 months to get everything straight, but we finally received our first electric bill last month (April) that actually showed our excess production being credited. It takes patience, but it's worth it.

    We have our "buy back" contract with Chariot Energy. The plan name is Rise 36. We are in the Oncor power delivery area. Our contract works as follows:

    When we import power from the grid, we are charged per each kWh: $0.0915 (Chariot energy charge) plus $9.95 (Chariot base monthly charge) plus $3.42 (Oncor base delivery charge) plus $0.038907 (Oncor delivery charge). At the 500 kWh monthly use level, for instance, this comes to $78.50 or $0.157 per kWh.

    When we export power to the grid, we are credited a flat rate of $0.0915 per kWh. So, at the 500 kWh monthly usage level, we must export about 1.72 kWh to "pay" for 1 kWh of imported power.

    The above deal is the best we could get in our location (Midland, TX). Our credits roll over month to month and year to year and never expire. Credits cannot be converted to cash. Chariot DOES allow us to pay the entire monthly amount due with credits, resulting in a "balance due" of zero. Some providers do not allow this, so that you can never completely zero out your monthly charges regardless of how much you export. Read the contract EFL (Electricity Facts Label) very carefully before you commit to a plan.

    We have storage (two 10 kW modules) so our daily power flow pattern includes battery discharge and recharge. We use our batteries every day to increase our independence from the grid and minimize power import. So far, our system seems to be meeting our goals. On our electric bill last month, we imported 384 kWh and exported 1,296 kWh, resulting in a balance due of zero and a credit of $55.02 to carry over. We are using a lot more power this month due to the hotter temps and working our air conditioner hard, so we will have less excess production to export. Our hope is that over the full year period, we will achieve a net zero balance on the cost of import versus export. Only time will tell!
    Last edited by SolTex; 05-23-2022, 10:37 AM.
    Enphase 15kW: (40) LG380N1C, IQ7+, (2) 10T storage

    Comment

    • solarix
      Super Moderator
      • Apr 2015
      • 1415

      #3
      Yes, utility rate plans can be complicated making it very difficult to be accurate about projected solar savings. In our area (Arizona), we have to overproduce by about 150% of actual usage in order to overcome all the fixed costs, fees and taxes in order to "break even" - at least on a yearly basis. Fortunately, solar is affordable enough to overcome the rate plan bias against solar and still be viable. Just put on more array and you'll be good.
      BSEE, R11, NABCEP, Chevy BoltEV, >3000kW installed

      Comment

      • Jerry Kirwan
        Junior Member
        • Apr 2022
        • 12

        #4
        Thank you for the replies so far.
        In my research I have had installation companies (Read Salesmen) to query what it would cost for their typical system. Cash price has been in the 40k with financing in the 65k range for about a 10kW system. Which is crazy! I asked the last one about sizing and he claimed 85% is the general rule. This may be where Solar is developing their own bad reputation, when customers have a Solar Payment AND and Electric Bill; Taboot. I am beginning to talk with my TDU but I thought they limited Solar to 130%

        "Just put on more array and you'll be good" I want to oversize my system but my garage which faces south only has 900Sq/Ft of area to roof mount 100%. I could ground mount 1.5 as I have the real-estate but do not care for the look.

        The only way I will attempt this is, if I can eliminate the power bill. The other problem is, I do not have 25 years to wait for a pay-back!!!

        Comment

        • Ampster
          Solar Fanatic
          • Jun 2017
          • 3650

          #5
          Originally posted by Jerry Kirwan
          ......

          The only way I will attempt this is, if I can eliminate the power bill. The other problem is, I do not have 25 years to wait for a pay-back!!!
          Ha, I don't have twenty five years either, but when I am pushing up tulips, it will give me comfort that some one else might be beating PGE out of a few bucks.
          9 kW solar, 42kWh LFP storage. EV owner since 2012

          Comment

          • azdave
            Moderator
            • Oct 2014
            • 762

            #6
            If you are worried about ROI (first sentence of first post in bold),do you understand that setting up a system to over-produce in order to reach net zero will never get you the best bang for the dollar thus extending your ROI? It is nice to be at net zero but producing only 85-90% of what you need is the better value because 100% of your solar investment is working for you at its max potential.

            Few grid-tie agreements reward you for over-production so you'll never get a good ROI if your goal is to produce enough to be completely net zero at the end of each fiscal period. My utility buys my excess off-season production at wholesale rates which some years can be five times less than retail. Why invest in an overly large system and get far less value for the excess you'll generate if you don't have 25 years to reach payback?
            Dave W. Gilbert AZ
            6.63kW grid-tie owner

            Comment

            • slinthicum
              Member
              • Apr 2022
              • 64

              #7
              Hence why I supplement my natural gas heating with electric space heaters from mid-December to mid-January (my true-up date), to use up that excess production. No sense in providing SDG&E with a cheap source of electricity and pay their retail price for natural gas.

              Comment

              • Jerry Kirwan
                Junior Member
                • Apr 2022
                • 12

                #8
                "...do you understand that setting up a system to over-produce in order to reach net zero will never get you the best bang for the dollar thus extending your ROI? It is nice to be at net zero but producing only 85-90% of what you need is the better value because 100% of your solar investment is working for you at its max potential..."

                Dave; If I paid Retail for a system you would be correct. I am capable of a DYI system saving about 20-40k. I have analyzed it and the numbers advertised are crazy, and Ok if you are 35 or less for a 25+ yr payback.

                They say there is more than one way to Skin-a-Cat. and there is more than one way to look at this! I am not considering this to Go-Green. I am trying to hedge a California Style Energy bill in the short future. This year my electric is going to increase by 40% in one year. I watch the Energy Markets at work. I am sorry if you do not get a 1 to1 return but I am hoping I can. If I were in your shoes, I would not have installed a system without it. I am confident there are many customers of Solar that do not understand $$$ or Electricity, who Salesmen prey upon, and those are the ones that try to reducing their power bills and actually wind up doubling them & making their house unsaleable. We are starting to see those in the news.

                I want to make my house NET ZERO, so IF I sell it will be a positive not a negative turning it into a boondoggle.

                Comment

                • bcroe
                  Solar Fanatic
                  • Jan 2012
                  • 5203

                  #9
                  If heat pumps chosen to cover the area temp range (and not resistive heat)
                  are used, winter surplus can be used with a savings on gas, and the variable
                  speed units use less energy in the summer too. That is ALL I use here,
                  NET ZERO. Bruce Roe

                  Comment

                  • Jerry Kirwan
                    Junior Member
                    • Apr 2022
                    • 12

                    #10
                    Originally posted by bcroe
                    If heat pumps chosen to cover the area temp range (and not resistive heat)
                    are used, winter surplus can be used with a savings on gas, and the variable
                    speed units use less energy in the summer too. That is ALL I use here,
                    NET ZERO. Bruce Roe
                    That is in my plan to convert one of my Propane Heat units to a Heat Pump. Also a DIY project. That way I will be dual fuel for heat in the winter. I was quoted a 26 week lead time on the unit I selected although!

                    Comment

                    • azdave
                      Moderator
                      • Oct 2014
                      • 762

                      #11
                      Originally posted by Jerry Kirwan
                      I have analyzed it and the numbers advertised are crazy, and Ok if you are 35 or less for a 25+ yr payback.
                      A 25-year payback on any investment is a horrible choice no matter what age. I myself would not have purchased solar if the ROI was over 9 years because at the time, I could have used my savings someplace else and made a better return. Solar was a place to invest and we did it at $1.68/watt and I didn't have to do any of the work.

                      Originally posted by Jerry Kirwan
                      I am sorry if you do not get a 1 to1 return but I am hoping I can. If I were in your shoes, I would not have installed a system without it.
                      Don't feel sorry for me. I think I did okay with an ROI of 6.5 years. We bought a turn-key system from a locally owned contractor and reached ROI in mid-2020. Our energy needs have dropped since 2014 due to additional conservation and kids moving out so now we over-produce 10-months of the year. We have had zero billable energy for five years in a row and with annual true-up credits applied, we pay a total of roughly $100 a year for electricity while living comfortably in Phoenix including a swimming pool and a detached 24 x 30 workshop. We also don't have to fool around with those convoluted on/off peak/super peak TOU plans, demand fees or winter/summer rates.
                      Last edited by azdave; 05-25-2022, 08:46 AM.
                      Dave W. Gilbert AZ
                      6.63kW grid-tie owner

                      Comment

                      • bcroe
                        Solar Fanatic
                        • Jan 2012
                        • 5203

                        #12
                        Originally posted by Jerry Kirwan

                        That is in my plan to convert one of my Propane Heat units to a Heat Pump. Also a
                        DIY project. That way I will be dual fuel for heat in the winter. I was quoted a 26 week
                        lead time on the unit I selected although!
                        They are a great opportunity for a talented DIYer to save more than half. But if you
                        err and lose the pre charge, it gets more complicated. I placed 5 different internet
                        orders over a couple years, delivery was like 3 weeks. But maybe these really are
                        the end times. Bruce Roe

                        Comment

                        • foggysail
                          Solar Fanatic
                          • Sep 2012
                          • 123

                          #13
                          Originally posted by Ampster
                          Ha, I don't have twenty five years either, but when I am pushing up tulips, it will give me comfort that some one else might be beating PGE out of a few bucks.
                          LOVE IT AMPSTER!!! I will be lucky if I get another 15. A new owner will smell the roses more than he will smell me.

                          Comment

                          • Jerry Kirwan
                            Junior Member
                            • Apr 2022
                            • 12

                            #14
                            Originally posted by bcroe

                            They are a great opportunity for a talented DIYer to save more than half. But if you
                            err and lose the pre charge, it gets more complicated. I placed 5 different internet
                            orders over a couple years, delivery was like 3 weeks. But maybe these really are
                            the end times. Bruce Roe
                            Bruce,

                            A DYI'er really is not an accurate description as I am an Engineer for a top 3 mfg. of A/C Equipment. I am kind of locked into a brand and the unit I selected is an VS/Inverter drive which is probably not a fast mover in the current climate of supply shortage. The Solar DYI term is somewhat accurate even though I was the electrician on my home build 20+ years ago.

                            I really want to go solar, but I need to work out the financials first and applications. One of the issues that seems to be hanging most up, are the details they did not know about, or understand. I have contacted the County here, and they gave me the green light as there are no permits required for Solar. The next stumbling block is the interconnect agreement with Center Point Energy my TDU. I have a neighbor down the street with about 80 panels which I still need to visit.

                            Comment

                            • bcroe
                              Solar Fanatic
                              • Jan 2012
                              • 5203

                              #15
                              To go net zero carbon footprint, you will need to do a lot of things
                              right. Your best shot includes ground mounted panels, and that
                              goes double if you need to deal with snow. A few of us have done
                              it, I am not counting off grid that always seems to have a lot of
                              diesel equipment around and burns firewood.

                              DIY is generic, not a rundown of one person who might have a
                              pro field. Bruce Roe

                              Comment

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