Help assessing quotes

[mjs020294]

I am curious as to why anyone would finance solar at the moment. House prices have risen significantly the last three years so most people have equity in their home. Interest rates are at historically low levels. Just remortgage and take cash out for the solar OR get an HELOC.

[edustys]

Thank you J.P.M. For your most informative reply.

I believe KeyboardFarmer was replying to me in that thread from today (2/10/22). Fingers crossed, I sent an inquiry to youlovesolar.com in hopes that they can come to my rescue.

Just curious and forgive me for being nosy but do you, yourself, have solar and if you do, what was your arrangement?

[J.P.M.]

Help me out here J.P.M.
Here’s our story: In 2008 we installed a 44 panel (25yr warranty) 2 inverter(10 yr warranty) SunPower system (Positive Ground which was state of the art then) for 66k cash after all was said and done (federal credits). System was operating fine. Our annual true-up averaged about 1.5k per year. My December, 2021 bill showed only 21kwh and January was 33kwh down from average normals of 240kwh -300kwh respectively for that time of the year. Obviously something had gone wrong. A SunPower authorized tech came out, opened the inverters and found that inverter servicing 22 south exposure panels had burned out (interior was scorched).

At some point since our initial purchase the industry went to Negative Ground Inverters. It also now appears that SunPower, knowing that inverters fail, did nothing to support its customers who now own basically ticking time-bombs because once failed there appears to be no replacements nor any work arounds. The remaining inverter (servicing 22 west exposure panels) is still working but for how long is anybody’s guess. To say that we’re profoundly disappointed in SunPower would be an understatement. Of course, we didn’t expect the inverters to last forever but we did expect to have been able to purchase replacements when they did ultimately fail.

We’ve been in contact with SunRun who are offering what I guess is a Power Purchase Agreement (PPA) which would install enough panels, at zero cost to us, to generate an overall 9,921kwhs annually at a flat rate of $0.22 per monthly kwh’s used with an annual increase capped at 2.9%. The current rates in our area are $.282 tier 1, $.354 tier 2, and obviously much higher in tier 3 which we will most certainly hit in the hotter California summer months. Additionally, Pacific Gas & Electric (PG&E) will most certainly continue to have more rate hikes as they pay out settlements and incur higher maintenance costs related to their taking responsibility for numerous very destructive wild fires.

For now and perhaps the next 5 to 10 years, the SunRun option looks very appealing but there are always buts aren’t there. If you were us, what questions would you be asking? What terms would you be negotiating? What pitfalls would you be looking out for? What equipment should we be expecting? Basically what do you feel might be our best course of action.

Since you're asking, if I were you, I most certainly would not be asking any questions of or even considering a PPA from SunRun or anyone else.

I'd be snooping around the net for info on refurbished/rebuilt inverters similar to what Keyboard farmer has done. See his post from today in another thread.

In the meantime, see Mike Holt's forum: "Sunpower positively grounded modules" or Google:" Are there still positive ground PV inverters".

In any case besides never leasing or PPA'ing, I'd go a long way before scrapping out a large system, even if it is 14 years old simply because the inverters took a dump - and given that a market in used PV equipment is about nonexistent, that's about what your array is worth if you intend to sell it.

I hope your investment has been recouped in the form of reduced electric bills over the years.

[edustys]

Help me out here J.P.M.
Here’s our story: In 2008 we installed a 44 panel (25yr warranty) 2 inverter(10 yr warranty) SunPower system (Positive Ground which was state of the art then) for 66k cash after all was said and done (federal credits). System was operating fine. Our annual true-up averaged about 1.5k per year. My December, 2021 bill showed only 21kwh and January was 33kwh down from average normals of 240kwh -300kwh respectively for that time of the year. Obviously something had gone wrong. A SunPower authorized tech came out, opened the inverters and found that inverter servicing 22 south exposure panels had burned out (interior was scorched).

At some point since our initial purchase the industry went to Negative Ground Inverters. It also now appears that SunPower, knowing that inverters fail, did nothing to support its customers who now own basically ticking time-bombs because once failed there appears to be no replacements nor any work arounds. The remaining inverter (servicing 22 west exposure panels) is still working but for how long is anybody’s guess. To say that we’re profoundly disappointed in SunPower would be an understatement. Of course, we didn’t expect the inverters to last forever but we did expect to have been able to purchase replacements when they did ultimately fail.

We’ve been in contact with SunRun who are offering what I guess is a Power Purchase Agreement (PPA) which would install enough panels, at zero cost to us, to generate an overall 9,921kwhs annually at a flat rate of $0.22 per monthly kwh’s used with an annual increase capped at 2.9%. The current rates in our area are $.282 tier 1, $.354 tier 2, and obviously much higher in tier 3 which we will most certainly hit in the hotter California summer months. Additionally, Pacific Gas & Electric (PG&E) will most certainly continue to have more rate hikes as they pay out settlements and incur higher maintenance costs related to their taking responsibility for numerous very destructive wild fires.

For now and perhaps the next 5 to 10 years, the SunRun option looks very appealing but there are always buts aren’t there. If you were us, what questions would you be asking? What terms would you be negotiating? What pitfalls would you be looking out for? What equipment should we be expecting? Basically what do you feel might be our best course of action.

[J.P.M.]

not knowing the size of your house... the size of that system knowing you are going to be adding TWO electric cars in the future, that system is not big enough.

I'd like to learn how you know that a 7kW system will not meet the OP's needs without knowing anything else except the OP plans on 2 EV's.

[Reid1boys]

I am in the process of soliciting quotes for a 7kw system to cover all my solar needs and 2 future EVs. I have collected 7 plus quotes so far and wanted to get insight from the community regarding who to go with. I am leaning towards Vivnt/Sunrun as a big name which after all incentives is close to any other small medium locals like SolarMax, La Solar...Let me know what you think of these quotes which detail cost and components as well as final costs after long term solar loan which I am choosing for the cash flow benefits. Thanks for any and all feedback

not knowing the size of your house... the size of that system knowing you are going to be adding TWO electric cars in the future, that system is not big enough.

[J.P.M.]

I don't even recommend using a loan to go solar no matter how good of a deal it seems. As soon as you go into debt for anything that depreciates that much in value, someone else will always have you by the short hairs one way or the other. Are you really thinking that a 20-25 year loan to go solar is a great idea?

Nor do I, at least not without a very thorough cash flow analysis that uses realistic but still conservative assumptions about the future, and especially for things like long term loans.

The OP seems to be one of the solar ignorant who see what they want to see and are pissed about high electric bills and so he drank the solar peddlars kool-aid and now has his mind made up and doesn't want to be confused by being told the realities of the residential PV game as it's played in CA or what the POCO sand their PUC stooges may have in store just around the corner.

But then, maybe we're all just a bunch of pessimistic nay sayers.

[SunEagle]

The best solar system is the one you can afford. If you have a desired end game, which I believe is 7KW. Maybe you do 3KW today, but do it in a way that is easy to add the extra 4KW and get approval, if grid-tied for the 7KW. As time goes the cost normally goes down thanks to technology, etc. In the current state of the world, who knows what next year will spring.

The panels over time go to zero between degradation and advanced in efficiency. Inverters/MPTT will continue to function but in even 10 years the connectors will change along with compatability, so their value drop. In 20 years the system has value to you because it is paid for, generates power at say 84% of original capacity, and its installed and working. For most places solar doesn't increase the selling value of a property, not because it lacks value but because buyers choose not to value it because they want it for free and because real estate agents aren't sure how to value it.

I've thrown out a lot here, but buy the system you can write a check for, but understand how you will expand it one day into the system you want.

While I agree that panel costs will come down the installation for them may go up. That is based on if companies decide to increase the labor costs like they are doing in stores.

While I feel good that people may get a better wage (>$15/hr) my fear is that labor increase will be passed onto the products and may put a lot of things outside the reach of people that can't afford to purchase those items. Just look at some of the stores that have raised their labor rates. You see a lot less check out people in them now. People are getting paid more but some are getting laid off due to the higher labor rates.

[heimdm]

The best solar system is the one you can afford. If you have a desired end game, which I believe is 7KW. Maybe you do 3KW today, but do it in a way that is easy to add the extra 4KW and get approval, if grid-tied for the 7KW. As time goes the cost normally goes down thanks to technology, etc. In the current state of the world, who knows what next year will spring.

The panels over time go to zero between degradation and advanced in efficiency. Inverters/MPTT will continue to function but in even 10 years the connectors will change along with compatability, so their value drop. In 20 years the system has value to you because it is paid for, generates power at say 84% of original capacity, and its installed and working. For most places solar doesn't increase the selling value of a property, not because it lacks value but because buyers choose not to value it because they want it for free and because real estate agents aren't sure how to value it.

I've thrown out a lot here, but buy the system you can write a check for, but understand how you will expand it one day into the system you want.

[azdave]

1.) Do not lease or PPA - Ever - or under any circumstances.

I don't even recommend using a loan to go solar no matter how good of a deal it seems. As soon as you go into debt for anything that depreciates that much in value, someone else will always have you by the short hairs one way or the other. Are you really thinking that a 20-25 year loan to go solar is a great idea?

[scrambler]

Thanks for the feedback. After over 24 hours of actual time spent evaluating and comparing proposals I have chosen to go with Vivint Solar (aka Sunrun) for the following reasons: I have security through them already and they offered a $25 monthly credit for 25 years which nets their cost out to be the lowest of all proposals. I am financing for 25 years because cash flow is king for me as I will only probably be in this house another 10 years and I want to see savings upfront rather than after that time in which case this house will most likely be another rental property for me and I can share the energy savings with my future tenant like I am doing on my previous house. I got Vivint to use REC Alpha 405W panels instead of the qcells they defaulted to and not charge any more. Yes customer service may be somewhat challenging with the large company but there is peace of mind in knowing that they are unlikely to disappear and I would just have to be persistent in support. The installer they are using is Freedom forever which I have seen a fair amount of negative reviews but they are one of the largest installers for my area so once again as long as I am persistent I should be able to get a good install.

I hope you don't regret that decision when the time comes to sell that house ....

[SunEagle]

Thanks for the feedback. After over 24 hours of actual time spent evaluating and comparing proposals I have chosen to go with Vivint Solar (aka Sunrun) for the following reasons: I have security through them already and they offered a $25 monthly credit for 25 years which nets their cost out to be the lowest of all proposals. I am financing for 25 years because cash flow is king for me as I will only probably be in this house another 10 years and I want to see savings upfront rather than after that time in which case this house will most likely be another rental property for me and I can share the energy savings with my future tenant like I am doing on my previous house. I got Vivint to use REC Alpha 405W panels instead of the qcells they defaulted to and not charge any more. Yes customer service may be somewhat challenging with the large company but there is peace of mind in knowing that they are unlikely to disappear and I would just have to be persistent in support. The installer they are using is Freedom forever which I have seen a fair amount of negative reviews but they are one of the largest installers for my area so once again as long as I am persistent I should be able to get a good install.

That may not be the greatest choice based on other member input but let us know how it goes for you.

[J.P.M.]

thanks for the feedback. After over 24 hours of actual time spent evaluating and comparing proposals i have chosen to go with vivint solar (aka sunrun) for the following reasons: I have security through them already and they offered a $25 monthly credit for 25 years which nets their cost out to be the lowest of all proposals. I am financing for 25 years because cash flow is king for me as i will only probably be in this house another 10 years and i want to see savings upfront rather than after that time in which case this house will most likely be another rental property for me and i can share the energy savings with my future tenant like i am doing on my previous house. I got vivint to use rec alpha 405w panels instead of the qcells they defaulted to and not charge any more. Yes customer service may be somewhat challenging with the large company but there is peace of mind in knowing that they are unlikely to disappear and i would just have to be persistent in support. The installer they are using is freedom forever which i have seen a fair amount of negative reviews but they are one of the largest installers for my area so once again as long as i am persistent i should be able to get a good install.

r.i.p.

[sti_lin]

Thanks for the feedback. After over 24 hours of actual time spent evaluating and comparing proposals I have chosen to go with Vivint Solar (aka Sunrun) for the following reasons: I have security through them already and they offered a $25 monthly credit for 25 years which nets their cost out to be the lowest of all proposals. I am financing for 25 years because cash flow is king for me as I will only probably be in this house another 10 years and I want to see savings upfront rather than after that time in which case this house will most likely be another rental property for me and I can share the energy savings with my future tenant like I am doing on my previous house. I got Vivint to use REC Alpha 405W panels instead of the qcells they defaulted to and not charge any more. Yes customer service may be somewhat challenging with the large company but there is peace of mind in knowing that they are unlikely to disappear and I would just have to be persistent in support. The installer they are using is Freedom forever which I have seen a fair amount of negative reviews but they are one of the largest installers for my area so once again as long as I am persistent I should be able to get a good install.

[sabersix]

My feedback is to reduce your loan term. 20-25 years is excessive and costly. Is there an early pay-off option for which you could pay more towards the principle? Are there shorter term loans?

A trick I used was to refinance one of my cars with a 2% credit union loan. I used the proceeds from that car loan to pay off the solar system. I then paid off the car loan in four years.