Request for input on solar proposal - Q Cells and Enphase Microinverters

[SunEagle]

I don't really care about previous installations. Whoever installs my system has the worst supervisor and project manager on earth to try and please, ME. I have installed main panels, and know how roofing systems work so I am fairly confident any work will be done to the highest standards. If I have any reservation or complaints they don't get paid.

As for bang for the buck unless system 'A' generates significantly more electricity that system 'B' there really isn't any benefits. Ignorance would be not doing a full home evaluation months before contacting solar companies and reducing consumption. Ignorance would be not fully understanding the cost benefits in terms of ROI when lost opportunity costs are also factored in. Installing solar in Florida is not a cost saving exercise if you pay much more than $1:50kw after rebates, even if you are paying cash.

As for bottom feeder companies my definition of that category would be the ones that are sales driven. The type of companies that sell people more solar than they really need or at prices that will NEVER give the customer a ROI. I had quotes from a couple of the major players in my area and they were ridiculous expensive. One wanted to charge $3:16 after rebates; that would have to be one very special system to justify the up charges. A neighbor was sold a lovely system by a major brand and his monthly payments over twenty years are 25% higher than his old electric bill. I feel seriously sorry for the folks that get over sold systems that will never really have a ROI.

I believe that some installers/manufacturers do not have the same support system as others. I also have some reservations concerning Tesla but that is based on people that have already tried to get them to solve a problem with their system. So Tesla would be one company that I would be very careful of and get their promises written in someone's blood.

[mjs020294]

I believe that some installers/manufacturers do not have the same support system as others. I also have some reservations concerning Tesla but that is based on people that have already tried to get them to solve a problem with their system. So Tesla would be one company that I would be very careful of and get their promises written in someone's blood.

Oh Tesla are definitely different to deal with. Once you get the direct lines of your project coordinator and local liaison its must less frustrating. I have actually heard some could stories of things they have done for customers as well. At the end of the day if a product has a 20-25 year warranty its not much use if the go bust after seven years. Of all the companies out there I am more confident Tesla will still be in operation in 2050. Customer service is much good once the company that provided the service goes out of business.

[SunEagle]

Oh Tesla are definitely different to deal with. Once you get the direct lines of your project coordinator and local liaison its must less frustrating. I have actually heard some could stories of things they have done for customers as well. At the end of the day if a product has a 20-25 year warranty its not much use if the go bust after seven years. Of all the companies out there I am more confident Tesla will still be in operation in 2050. Customer service is much good once the company that provided the service goes out of business.

The problem is that company that was purchased by Tesla was around in Nevada and then left when the Net metering rules were eliminated along with most of the installers. And the PUC is looking at changes to the Net metering rules in Florida which could make any ROI very long.

Also the warranty does not mean much to me because I won't be alive in 2050 so I really doubt solar will ever work for me.

[Cshama]

I think counting on any solar company or net metering rule will be around in 5 years is a stretch. Apparently I’m grandfathered in for 20 years in New York.. but we will see.

My net cost after incentives was $1.14/watt. And I have the ideal situation in terms of non obstructed south facing roof. My apparent payoff is 4 years or so given that Coned charges 21 cents, one of the highest rates in the country after California and Hawaii.

But I consider solar marginal economically even in my case. Basically I have to stay out for at least 4 more years which I was intending but now I’m not even sure.

A lot of the solar math is contingent on you staying put for 25 years and net metering rules never changing. It’s a bit of a scam. The solar salesmen sell on the basis of reducing your monthly bill but over a ridiculous time period before you pay off the loan.

i don’t regret getting solar but I’m much happier about the $2k I spent having insulation blown into my attic. That made the biggest difference by far. I also found out that my hot tub was responsible for half my electric bill. I installed a heat pump at the same time and now don’t use my oil burner. Essentially I save $10k a year on electric and oil.

This is how I would have done it if I knew then what I know now.

1) Insulate
2) Figure out what is using power. My hot tub was costing me $1500 a year to run. I insulated it and switch it off in the winter.
3) Get a heat pump and upgrade my pool pump and water heater to variable speed and heat pump.
4) Finally possibly get or not get solar. Make sure that it’s oversized and you have less then a 5 year payback. It really is very marginal and the utilities are going all out to kill it. Without net metering it makes limited sense for me at least.


I did everything at once but solar was the most expensive by far.

[mjs020294]

i don’t regret getting solar but I’m much happier about the $2k I spent having insulation blown into my attic. That made the biggest difference by far. I also found out that my hot tub was responsible for half my electric bill. I installed a heat pump at the same time and now don’t use my oil burner. Essentially I save $10k a year on electric and oil.

This is how I would have done it if I knew then what I know now.

1) Insulate
2) Figure out what is using power. My hot tub was costing me $1500 a year to run. I insulated it and switch it off in the winter.
3) Get a heat pump and upgrade my pool pump and water heater to variable speed and heat pump.
4) Finally possibly get or not get solar. Make sure that it’s oversized and you have less then a 5 year payback. It really is very marginal and the utilities are going all out to kill it. Without net metering it makes limited sense for me at least.


I did everything at once but solar was the most expensive by far.

Taking a good look at your pre-solar consumption is an absolute must. Buying a system for what might be over consumption is a very expensive purchase. We averaged around 55kw a day for the year before getting solar quotes. Our house is reasonably insulated and we have LED bulbs in most fitting. However by switching out a ten year hot water heater for a new hybrid unit, reducing the pool pump hours while increasing the chlorinator output and decommissioning an old freezer saved us over 15kw a day.

[Cshama]

I have to disagree with that. Oversizing in the beginning for things like electric cars, heat pumps etc makes sense because adding panels later is much more expensive.

[SunEagle]

I have to disagree with that. Oversizing in the beginning for things like electric cars, heat pumps etc makes sense because adding panels later is much more expensive.

Still conservation has proven to be the cheapest way to reduce the electric bill. Having a large pv system then is needed makes it hard to justify an ROI unless money is no question.

[mjs020294]

I have to disagree with that. Oversizing in the beginning for things like electric cars, heat pumps etc makes sense because adding panels later is much more expensive.

It depends how far into the future you are adding things like EVs. The sensible approach is reduce your output; do everything you can to reduce consumption because its generally much cheaper than adding solar capacity. Most electric companies have pricing bands so adding solar to get you well into the bottom band is also a very cost effective exercise.

If you're 100% confident you're will be consuming more in the next 2-3 years it could be cost effective to oversize. Solar prices tend to decrease and efficiency will increase so adding a second system later is also an option.

[J.P.M.]

I have to disagree with that. Oversizing in the beginning for things like electric cars, heat pumps etc makes sense because adding panels later is much more expensive.

If one goal of getting PV is to reduce an electric bill in the most long-term cost-effective way(s), the place to start is by reducing usage. Period. You will never pay less for power than the power you don't use in the first place. Besides, doing conservation first will have an added bonus of reducing the PV size - and so its cost.

And, if PV can be made cost effective for an application, the quickest way to kill that cost effectiveness is by oversizing.

In any case, determining usage as well as what that usage costs is a necessary and usually first step in the go/no go PV decision process.

The second step is to reduce that usage as best fits your lifestyle and goals keeping in mind that everything has a price.

Again, if the goal is a reduced electric bill in the most cost-effective way, what's usually considered the smart approach is to do the most cost-effective stuff first (like turning lights off, changing thermostat settings and things that don't require equipment changes). Usually, and in spite of what solar equipment peddlers will hammer and rant about, when conservation measures are listed by most to least cost effective, PV is usually near the bottom right down with new windows, meaning that PV is usually about the last thing done - if at all.

More often than not, if conservation measures are done in that way, it also often happens the conservation measures are so effective at reducing an electric load that adding PV becomes non cost effective.

I had a solar guru tell me a dirty little secret back in 1977 that the biggest impediment and the most effective competition to solar energy wasn't big oil or the utilities - it was conservation. Over the last years I've found that to be as true as anything else I may know about solar energy.

[scrambler]

I agree the first step is reducing your energy consumption wherever possible.
That said, one's energy consumptions spans across many different types, electricity being one of them, others being things like natural gas or gasoline.

There is no way to get "free" gas or gasoline, but if you consider adding solar is a way to get "free" or incredibly cheap electricity in the long run, then it makes sense to consider switching some of the other energy consumption to electricity. And so, while you may be reducing your overall consumption of energy, you may actually increase your consumption of electricity.

EVs are the obvious candidate here. If a family with 2 cars ultimately plans to switch them to EV, that will significantly increase their electricity consumption, while actually reducing they consumption of energy. Switching gas heating to electric heating would be another example.

But for these cases, it can make total sense to oversize a system in prevision of these energy conversion.

[SunEagle]

I agree the first step is reducing your energy consumption wherever possible.
That said, one's energy consumptions spans across many different types, electricity being one of them, others being things like natural gas or gasoline.

There is no way to get "free" gas or gasoline, but if you consider adding solar is a way to get "free" or incredibly cheap electricity in the long run, then it makes sense to consider switching some of the other energy consumption to electricity. And so, while you may be reducing your overall consumption of energy, you may actually increase your consumption of electricity.

EVs are the obvious candidate here. If a family with 2 cars ultimately plans to switch them to EV, that will significantly increase their electricity consumption, while actually reducing they consumption of energy. Switching gas heating to electric heating would be another example.

But for these cases, it can make total sense to oversize a system in prevision of these energy conversion.

Unfortunately switching to EV's for us is not a great idea. We live out in the country and there are few charging stations or EV dealers for that matter. But I understand an EV might be the best for those that live in a place where they can charge it while at work or shopping.

[Cshama]

I’ve been switching my oil usage to electric. My oil bill would have been at least $6k this year but now it will be zero. That’s because I’m using heat pumps now.

I think the extra cost of a few more panels is well worth it but of course like I said before nothing beats conserving energy .

[J.P.M.]

Unfortunately switching to EV's for us is not a great idea. We live out in the country and there are few charging stations or EV dealers for that matter. But I understand an EV might be the best for those that live in a place where they can charge it while at work or shopping.

If/When I ever get an EV, I'll be charging it at home and only at super off peak rates and times. From what I've seen of charging rates at stations around here (when I can find a rate), I'll be better off staying with an ICE considering cost per mile for fuel if I used a charging station.

An example: @ 30 MPG for an ICE vehicle and using a fuel cost of $4.50/gal. (the going rate @ Costco just now which is about the most competitive around), and say, 3 miles/kWh for EV "mileage", that's $0.15/mile fuel cost for the ICE.

With respect to fuel costs only, if the charging station rate is > ($0.15)*(3) = $0.45/kWh, I'll be better off staying with the ICE vehicle.

Once in a while I'll see a free charging station at a grocery store or such, but I'd not count on it.

What I'm also finding is that it's next to impossible to find a station with a published charging rate or a published rate schedule which seems to make it next to impossible to do any comparison shopping. When I do find a rate it seems always > that $0.45. I'm told Tesla charging may be quite a bit less expensive.

Your mileage and costs will most certainly vary.

And all this is before consideration for the 5 minute ICE fill up vs. whatever a charging time night be for the charging of an EV.

I suppose when an EV does appear in my future, I'll be doing a life cycle cost analysis for a level 2 charger in my garage vs. getting ripped off at a charging station.
However, at this time it seems the best per kWh rate I'll get from my POCO (San Diego Gas & Electric) is a super off peak rate of ~ $0.26/kWh which, @ 3 miles/kWh, makes for an EV fuel cost of ~ $0.26/kWh/3 = $0.0867/mile. Given the above costs I've assumed for the example, means I'd need an ICE that gets ($4.50/gal./($0.0867/mile) = 51.9 MPG or better. Given EV costs at this time, looks like a Prius hybrid might fill the bill for a lot less than most any EV even before considerations for the cost of a level 2 charger.

All that written, I also realize that vehicle ownership or "leaseship" is about a whole lot more than fuel costs alone. FWIW, I've still got my eye/mind on a Porsche Taycan and screw the Prius. So much for economics, but I stlll don't see the logic of an EV without off peak charging at home, particularly when coupled to a cost effective residential PV array and a super off peak T.O.U. or other cheap rate. Charging stations just don't seem the way to go from where I'm seeing the game.

[Cshama]

The Prius is by far the worst car I’ve ever driven in almost every respect. Get the Porsche.

[SunEagle]

The Prius is by far the worst car I’ve ever driven in almost every respect. Get the Porsche.

And that is why I won't get or can afford an EV. The Porsche is way too expensive.

I am still waiting on an EV truck but IMO that may not happen for the next few years or at least a couple of years after they shake out the bugs for new models.