Professional solar= financial scam almost every where USA vs regular utility rates.

[khanh dam]

This thread made me go over my numbers. I have a pretty ideal solar situation. And the price I got seems lower then most.
It will take me 5 years to pay off. Assuming I don't move.
Given I have the most expensive utility, that I need a large system, and the low price of my system. I think I need to agree with the OP. Solar for most people doesn't really make financial sense.

How to Read Your Con Edison NEM Bill - Sunrun
might want to read above website.
If Con Edison does not reimburse you for delivery charges then your solar pay off will be 50% less than you calculate. Example $67 bill is about 1/3 fees
1/3 cost of electricity and
1/3 delivery of electricity

Worse case scenario solar only compensates you only for the 9cents/kwh. Best case scenario solar compensates for distibution fees as well which is another 12 cents or so or 21 cents total. good luck.
edited to add probably the latter, so I would not stress over it , but it does look like you will have fixed fees around $25/ month and solar is not going to reduce that.

[khanh dam]

Maybe you could find a new subject that hasn't been beaten to death, or at least find something else to rant about.
I expressed opinions in good faith about what seemed to work for me, or at least helped me head off some of the B.S. I suspect it may work as well for you and others, although I'm under no illusions you'll agree or give it a try. Some folks you just can't reach.

Do you always have to take something and turn it into a personal attack? All of my questions are meant to understand how solar sales works in various states. I don't need to crunch my own numbers. My utility is flat 9.6cents/kwh and easy to determine payback which is about 1.5 years with the utility rebate I got, but yet you assume I've been asking all these questions to figgure out my own solar profit or something?

I am crunching numbers to see if solar makes sense at a certain price point in a certain state. And you treat me like I'm some high school drop out. If you really want to help other people try being nicer. You aren't giving straight talk, you talk down to people, assume they arent' smart enough to learn and act like you spoon fed them caviar. I studied engineering in college, I've got a technical mind set. I dont' need your attitude.

and quite frankly the subject has not been beaten to death. I've spent hours looking on this forum and the wind/sun and the facebook groups and hardly anyone does finanacial calculations for solar. There was one post about pvcalc, a couple posts about Open Solar Software and that was about it out of thousands of posts.

you are not an admin go make your own forum if you want boss around other people and tell them what to discuss.

[Cshama]

This thread made me go over my numbers. I have a pretty ideal solar situation. And the price I got seems lower then most.

It will take me 5 years to pay off. Assuming I don't move.

Given I have the most expensive utility, that I need a large system, and the low price of my system. I think I need to agree with the OP. Solar for most people doesn't really make financial sense.

[J.P.M.]

No one's going to read something that long, come on, you might as well be telling people that go to church to read the entire bible. Google rooftop solar is much better for most people in one minute they get a broad overview of what they might save, then open solar and pv watts are a tie for 2nd, each with thier own issues.

Pay your money, take your choice. The more one learns, and the closer one gets to starting with the basics, the better will be the chances of not getting screwed as badly.

I just never said it didn't take some work and persistence.

To me, it looks like your big beefves for this thread are lack of ability to get simple answers to the somewhat involved (but I'd suggest not conceptually difficult) concepts around solar process economics, and the general state of B.S. around the lack of integrity found in many solar peddlers and so the solar industry in general.

I offer the general comment and partial solution to both situations in the form of more educated consumers. Basically, look in a mirror for solutions and start finding your own answers, none of which are beyond your grasp.

I've suggested that one of the best tools I've found for dealing with both issues is self education. I've down the same or similar road many years ago to the one you seem to be on and also got tired of the B.S. from nitwits and conmen early on. I found the best way for me to deal with it was by education. I think I figured out a lot of what you're bitching about >40 years ago and have been writing a lot of what to do about the same stuff around here for years.

Maybe you could find a new subject that hasn't been beaten to death, or at least find something else to rant about.

I expressed opinions in good faith about what seemed to work for me, or at least helped me head off some of the B.S. I suspect it may work as well for you and others, although I'm under no illusions you'll agree or give it a try. Some folks you just can't reach.

BTW, someone did read something that long and learned a few things from it.

As I wrote, take want you want of my spoor and scrap the rest. It matters not a whit to me, but others may find some worth in it.

[oregon_phil]

You meant to say you are buying an 18.36kW system that is estimated to produce 22000 kWh per year. Those are two different numbers. Your cost per DC watt is $21,000/18360 = $1.14. Since you said net, I assume you meant after federal and state tax solar credits.

edited: I was too slow. Pugpower's typing skills beat me to the math.

[PugPower]

Quick question. My net cost was $21k for a 18.36kw system producing on average 22000 watts

Does that mean my cost was about $1 a watt.

Tesla offered a lower price but I wanted to go local.

Based on your numbers, your net cost was $1.14 per watt.

[Cshama]

Quick question. My net cost was $21k for a 18.36kw system producing on average 22000 watts

Does that mean my cost was about $1 a watt.

Tesla offered a lower price but I wanted to go local.

[ajzwilli]

Gross cost for a turnkey system for me in IL was $3.50 for a 8.5kW system which was outrageous IMO. I received 13 bids ranging $2.60 to $4.00. However, after installer rebates, federal tax incentive and SREC (paid up front for 15 years of production), net cost was less than $0.50. My concern was that if I DIY and didn't go with an approved installer by the state, there was no guarantee I would get the SRECs. If I DIY and didn't get the SREC, that was the most expensive option. If I did DIY and did get the SREC, it would have been getting paid to go solar. On top of that, with my TOU plan and net metering, my utility bill was $0 until December as my production exceeded my demand and offset my fixed meter charge (all other costs and taxes are based on usage). due to working from home and not charging the EV. Estimating my break-even in less than 3 years with with retail electricity costs of around 5 cents (mine averages around 3 due to TOU) and total costs of around 10 to 11 cents with distribution and taxes. Unfortunately for anyone in IL looking to go solar, the SRECs have been fully allocated and is no longer offered (currently a waitlist).

[PugPower]

I purchased a turn-key 6.7kW system in 2019 for my home in S. Cali. My cost per watt was approximately $2.05 after all tax incentives and rebates, including a 2K main panel upgrade. My break-even is 5-6 years from time of purchase, even less if electricity rates increase or we use more electricity over that time period. Where I live we have some of the highest electricity costs in the nation and lots of sun. I plan on staying in this home for al least 5 years. I agree that there are some shady sales people and some bad deals in the solar world. People have to do their homework before committing to anything and make smart decisions. The generalizations made by the OP are very misinformed IMO.

[khanh dam]

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How many states allow their utilities to pay the homeowner for power their put onto the grid?
It sounds kind of interesting, maybe folks who are interested in net-metering should first move to a state where the utility will pay you for power you generate.

technically 46out of 50 states have net metering laws, but many of those laws do not apply to Municipalities or Co-Op. if one googles' STATE NAME, ELECTRICITY UTILITY MAP, one can get a feel for which areas are solar friendly. so for example in this map red does not equal republican voters, those are co-ops which may or may not have net metering. only the white areas are required by law to have net metering. Situation is very similar for many states.

[khanh dam]

The best work I've seen that's specifically on solar process economics is from NREL. It is about 200 pages long. It's not conceptually difficult, just involved.
.

No one's going to read something that long, come on, you might as well be telling people that go to church to read the entire bible. Google rooftop solar is much better for most people in one minute they get a broad overview of what they might save, then open solar and pv watts are a tie for 2nd, each with thier own issues.

[SunEagle]

How many states allow their utilities to pay the homeowner for power their put onto the grid?

It sounds kind of interesting, maybe folks who are interested in net-metering should first move to a state where the utility will pay you for power you generate.

It really depends on the POCO concerning net metering. Even in some states a small POCO will not accept anything you give them unless the law says they have to.

[SunEagle]

Public Utility grid power is the cheapest source of power.

But if you settle in a community where the closest grid power is over 20 miles remote, then the conversation shifts to comparing the operating costs of generators.

To me, it makes no difference what the cost of grid power is, if you can not afford the setup costs of running power lines into your township.

Running a generator is expensive, and it ties you directly to the logistical system used for petroleum.

The tenth time that you load up your truck with oil drums, to make the trek into the city to buy generator fuel, that is when you realize that there must be a better alternative.

I agree it can be more cost effective to have an off grid system depending on where you live like you.

I hope you don't get too much snow this weekend. Stay safe and warm.

[organic farmer]

California forced the utilities to pay retail for power I produce.

Must be nice

Here the best you can get is credits, that expire after 12 months.

[J.P.M.]

Kernal of Truth to what I write? more like a XXXL popcorn container of it. I can name a couple of states with electricity rates around the 6cent rates, never gonna work there. How about the states that dont' even have net metering? How about maps of electrical co-ops which dominate huge areas in the SE and almost always have poor net metering terms.

Kind of typical response I get on this forum to be honest. It's like when I asked about calculating ROI, increasing utility rates and other factors and I get the old: "you can do that in excel" IF it's so easy why don't you show me then? Fact of the matter is consumer are not educated because there are very few websites that make it easy. PVcalc has terms that I do not even understand and are not explained. Google Rooftop just gives estimates, but does not allow one to change parameter and open solar is too technical for most to pick up and learn.

And to top it all off this very website/forum contributes to the BS salesmen ship. Guess how I got the local solar estimates? Yep gave this forums/website my info and within 24 hrs had 3 companies wanting me to sign up for $20K + loans.

If you think solar sales is so freaking good, dish out the numbers. show people how much money they will save, not just some vague sour grapes BS.

OK. Take a deep breath.

You want to be shown ? The process is not difficult to understand, just involved - and seemingly more involved than you may want to make it - and take longer to describe than can be done in a forum type format such as this if you want some hope of meaningful results.

While I'd agree it's not a difficult subject, it's more involved than you seem to think. IMO, your ignorance of the subject is showing.

As for your demand that I (or others I suppose) dish out numbers, If you think meaningful information with required background can be described accurately in a few paragraphs as you seem to be implying, I'm afraid I'm incapable of giving you what you want, and I'd be surprised if it can be done in ways that would be useful to you and not lead to bad ends. There's no magic bullet or number. Just a learning process.

About the best I can do is point to a couple of sources I've found.

The best work I've seen that's specifically on solar process economics is from NREL. It is about 200 pages long. It's not conceptually difficult, just involved.

The best (primarily because it's much more readable) treatment of solar process economics I've seen is the 32 pages of chap. 11 (titled "Solar Process Economics") of Duffie & Beckman's "Solar Engineering of Thermal Processes". While the volume is primarily about solar thermal - except for a very good chapter about PV - all the economic stuff in chap. 11 is directly applicable to any residential energy use economic analysis (including residential PV) and can be understood by anyone who can think and do simple arithmetic.

If you want to get to the bottom of all of it, you might consider starting at the beginning and picking up one of the many books available on engineering economic analysis or process economics. I'm pretty sure you won't do that any more than you'll search out a copy of Duffie & Beckman, but maybe someone who knows the difference between information and knowledge and is looking to get to the bottom of the subject (or at least closer to the bottom) might read this and perhaps find it useful.

The above may not be what you're looking for, but that's the best I can do on the forum of fewer illusions.

Take what you want of the above. Scrap the rest.